Gruen 415 runs fast

[SAK335]

I'm going through the same thing with a Gruen 415 right now, so subscribing.  Thanks for the tip on the compass to check for magnetization; I'm beginning to suspect my demagnetizer doesn't work as advertised.

[JohnR725]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:18 AM, SAK335 said:

I'm going through the same thing with a Gruen 415 right now, so subscribing.  Thanks for the tip on the compass to check for magnetization; I'm beginning to suspect my demagnetizer doesn't work as advertised.

Even though a lot of problems seems similar to other people's problems and watch repair and they probably are you really should start a new discussion. Because even the watches of the same there different and if you want help with your watch it's best to have your own discussion. Then we can look into your demagnetizer issue and proper use of a compass otherwise it can lead to confusion.

[JohnR725]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:18 AM, SAK335 said:

I'm beginning to suspect my demagnetizer doesn't work as advertised.

Perhaps a picture of your tool would be helpful because there are quite a few out there?

I'm attaching a image of how you're supposed to use the compass

Then a link to a video showing the effect of magnetism and some tools for removing the magnetic fields

https://youtu.be/E6_KOcc4eD4

On 1/14/2022 at 10:18 AM, SAK335 said:

I'm going through the same thing with a Gruen 415 right now,

Then maybe a picture of your watch on the  timing machine so we can see what it looks like. Unfortunately magnetism doesn't explain all problems of timekeeping issues.

 

[SAK335]

OK, thanks for the magnet example.  The movement is definitely magnetized.  I have the cheap blue demagnetizer that every amateur seems to own.

I did watch a few videos and I've apparently not been holding the button long enough.  It appears to have worked now that I'm holding it on longer.

Unfortunately the watch is still running quite poorly.  It was a non-runner when I found it and while it looked OK, the balance spring was not perfect.  I spent quite a bit of time working on it after I serviced the watch, but while I have gotten the coils evenly spaced out, it is more cone-shaped than flat, and I *think* that is causing the spring to contact the center wheel which would explain the problem.  I've attached a few photos.  I'm going to order a new balance with spring, which Cousins has in stock, and see if that fixes the issue.

 

[JohnR725]

52 minutes ago, SAK335 said:

Unfortunately the watch is still running quite poorly.  It was a non-runner when I found it and while it looked OK, the balance spring was not perfect.  I spent quite a bit of time working on it after I serviced the watch, but while I have gotten the coils evenly spaced out, it is more cone-shaped than flat, and I *think* that is causing the spring to contact the center wheel which would explain the problem.  I've attached a few photos.  I'm going to order a new balance with spring, which Cousins has in stock, and see if that fixes the issue.

This is why we branched this discussion off into a separate discussion because even though problems can seem similar the watches do not have the same background history in the not necessarily the same.

Then nice timing machine picture? One of the things important when looking at the timing machine is what is the machine telling you? This is where you look at the watch itself what is it look like it's doing, you look at the graphical display in you look at the numbers and if they all look like they're doing similar the machine is probably giving you the correct answer. But when you have random dots like you have the machine has no more a way of figuring out what those dots mean the new and the numbers then become totally worthless. Basically the machines telling you it's having a problem and your watch is having a very severe problem so the amplitudes the raids none of that is valid until you see something that resembles lines on the machine

Then as far as us helping you with the balance wheel that's hard because your pictures need considerable improvement. But if they hairspring is suitably no longer perfect because? What are the hairspring look like when you got the watch originally? One of the problems are you learning watch repair it's really easy to make things worse without grasping you've done. Straightening a hairspring requires a lot of practice preferably on disposable watches are disposable balance wheels before you get a real good feel for doing it.

Then yes they hairspring really does have to be reasonably flat if it's not it will touch the balance arms the watch will run and if you are extreme depending on the spacing you could touch the center will in the balance bridge is a lot of things they hairspring can touch that it's not supposed to. Then if it's cone shaped but not touching anything that causes uneven pressure on the pivots and you'll see or can see differences between dial-up and dial down.

Soviet balance complete it probably will fix all your problems if your hairspring is dramatically where it's not supposed to be or not shape right or whatever

 

[SAK335]

The spring wasn't in great shape.  I removed the spring to oil the cap jewel.  This balance is not shock protected and the screws to access it are on the underside.  I honestly can't imagine who thought that was a good idea, but as an engineer I've seen worse I guess.  Anyway, dropping the spring was easy and once I got it off it looked like two of the coils were stuck together.  I oiled the jewels, put it back together and got the same sort of readout on the machine.

At this point I started looking for causes of low amplitude, etc and found the other thread.

So I pulled the spring back off and looked closer at the two coils that were 'stuck' together.  I watched some videos on straightening springs and none of their techniques were even coming close to working.  So I took a step back and thought that something wasn't right.  I was using a needle from the sewing kit to work with the spring.  So what I did was start in the middle and start following the spring outwards in a spiral. When I got to the place where the coils appeared to be touching, I found that it was actually that the spring was reverse-coiled in that spot.  Tied in a knot, of sorts.  So I used the needle to 'push' that part until it reached the stud, then I used my third hand to flip it over with some tweezers.   

After that was done, I straightened two bent spots and the coils were uniform from start to end.  As you might imagine, I was pretty proud of myself since this is supposed to be expert stuff.  But I have boatloads of patience and a steady hand.  That's when I noticed that the spring was actually cone-shaped rather than flat.  I can only surmise this was done by the last guy that worked on it before it got stuck in the drawer for many years.  I tried to get a photo but it's too small to see anything and remain in focus.

The new spring is on order and we'll see what happens when it comes in later this week.  I can't see any way to get the original flat again without a whole lot more effort than the 15 Pounds that Cousins is asking.

[watchweasol]

So far so good and well done you , keep us uptodate with the progress.

[JohnR725]

44 minutes ago, SAK335 said:

This balance is not shock protected and the screws to access it are on the underside.  I honestly can't imagine who thought that was a good idea, but as an engineer I've seen worse I guess.

Remember somewhere in the universe their engineers designing watches they must come up with new ideas every day or they lose their job so you're going to find lots of bazaar designs but this one really isn't bad. Normally don't have to access it so the screws can be on the backside. Then as far as lubrication goes you can lubricate it from the backside cleaning can be an issue depends on how good your cleaning machine cleans.

Then for the hairspring? Ideally one learning watch repair you should start with a running watch. I like to recommend the 6497 Chinese clone on eBay the cheap. Armed with your timing machine you can verify that it works. You can also study and look at it you look at the hairspring on the balance wheel see this flat. Basically gives you an opportunity to watch something that's working as opposed to trying to save nonworking watches where you don't have the expertise to know what you're looking for or at.

Then you start taking it apart and putting it together cleaning and lubricating it each time verifying on the timing machine that it still running. This way you get experience with a running watch you know that everything is hopefully right you can verify that it looks right and you just get a feel for how things look versus starting on a broken watch where you don't know what the problems are and even though you will be excited that you fix the watch is still don't know what it is you're looking at or for yet I don't really think it's a good way to learn watch repair even though that's what everyone in the group is doing.

Then hairsprings they are insanely easy to destroy. Some of them are way tougher than others it's much harder to do bad things but others are really really easy. Just taking the balance out and putting it back is enough to get things tangled up. This is where you really need to practice with balance wheels with something you don't care about where he can just practice bending hairspring is straightening about etc. Because as you found depending upon your reference material it's not always as easy as it makes it look. Monetize people showing you how easy it are people that can literally do it in their sleep and that's really misleading.

 

[Nucejoe]

That is a beautiful dial.

Hopefully the spring you bought produces 18000 bph on your old balance wheel.

 

[xyzzy]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

That is a beautiful dial.

Indeed! Be careful with that dial as you'll have much harder time finding such a nice condition dial than finding a working 415 movement.

It looks very similar, but not the same as, the Gruen Precision 510 that is the first watch 007 is seen wearing.

[SAK335]

So I found this watch in a large box of watches that was in my mom's basement.  She had a business doing estate sales and I spent about 10 years helping her sell stuff before she died (while also doing my day job.)  Unfortunately, every time I cleared an area out, she put more stuff in!  I also found quite a few working watches (that weren't my style) that I sold off.  In hindsight I should have kept a few to work on, but I've got more than enough to keep me occupied.  Many pin pallet movements from the 60's, which I don't enjoy working on, but they're good practice.

Anyway, I have no money invested in the watches that I work on, so I have no cost basis to worry about.  If I have to spend a few bucks (I'm American, so I'm going to speak like one!) on a balance it's no big deal.  It's much cheaper than buying stuff from China to work on.  

I have been very careful with the dial; it is in very nice condition, and the gold-plated case is pretty nice too.  I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product as I've got a lot of time in it at this point messing with this balance wheel after the full service.

[Bauertime]

I've found that Gruen hair springs are made of butter and easily damaged.

[SAK335]

I believe you.  The new balance from Cousins arrived with the spring bent right in the box. Looks like I'm returning it and ordering a new one...the saga continues.

[Nucejoe]

If you bought a balance complete, you done made the best decision as opposed to buying a spring only, its just  unfortunate that the spring is bent.