Watch is gaining and regulation arm won't go any further

[MattyG]

I recently got a Bulova 11AL from a local jeweler who asked me to fix it up for him. He knows I'm an amature but said he'd give it to me it practice on and told me to bring it back to him in a week to see what I can do. He told me It was gaining. Which it was. Around 720+ seconds per day. After my service and regulation I got it down to 70 seconds per day. The regulation arm wont go any further without touching the beat error regulation arm. If anyone has any helpful advice for me to use I would seriously greatly appreciate it. 

(By the way, the balance jewels are cleaned and lubricated)

[watchweasol]

 What is the amplitude, and beat error of the movement, If the movement , is still fast with the regulator in full retard,  check the balance coils for fouling the cock or balance arms andthat they are not sticking together during oscillation. also bear in mind the fact that it may be magnetised so a demagnitisation would be in order.

[nickelsilver]

I would put a pair of timing washers on, opposing screws, this is exactly what they are made for.

[MattyG]

I demagnetized the movement before any nothing really changed. Amplitude is at a good 270 give or take. Beat error is 0.2ms. Nothing is fouling either. Thanks for the reply by the way.

[MattyG]

It seems at though the hairspring need to be manually lengthened. Almost like I can carefully pull some more hairspring out of the lever so I have more to work with? Not sure if this is a good idea but that was what I was thinking.

 

[jdm]

9 minutes ago, MattyG said:

It seems at though the hairspring need to be manually lengthened.

Post a good picture of the end stud.

[MattyG]

Here 

[jdm]

34 minutes ago, MattyG said:

Here 

There is no hairspring left for repinning longer, maybe it had broken at the stud and someone "fixed" it that way.

I don't know Bulova and I can't tell from pics, are there timing screws?

[Plato]

Or add some timing washers.

[MattyG]

There are timing screws yes, Also what are timing washers?

 

[jdm]

28 minutes ago, MattyG said:

There are timing screws yes, Also what are timing washers?

If you enter these words inside double quotes on the search box top right you will have all the relevant discussions to learn at least the basics. 

[MattyG]

cool will do

 

[JohnR725]

We get a picture of the balance wheel in the watch looking straight down so we can see the regulating beat arm etc.

Then picture of your timing machine when it's running so we can see what that looks like?

 

 

[MattyG]

Ya sure, Also I checked again, there are no timing screws unfortunately. 

[JohnR725]

Probably not an issue but your hairspring isn't centered and I assume you looked at it to make sure it was flat?

 

[MattyG]

I'll look into washers now thanks, and I'm not sure how to recenter a hair spring, but I'll look into that because I'm assuming that's a very useful skill to have. 

[jdm]

16 hours ago, MattyG said:

I'll look into washers now thanks, and I'm not sure how to recenter a hair spring, but I'll look into that because I'm assuming that's a very useful skill to have. 

Post a picture taken straight above the balance installed, and one taken laterally. Hairspring manipulation is not as easy as saying it, and many have been by beginners and not. That's why I recommend that if you care about this watch, practice that skill on something else first.

That being said, considering that the balance has timing screws, that is what I suggest you should use to slow it down.

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, MattyG said:

I'll look into washers now thanks

Searching eBay I only found one listing here, and cousinsuk.com don't seem to have them. Does anyone know a good source for timing washers?

[JohnR725]

On 1/14/2022 at 8:59 AM, jdm said:

Post a good picture of the end stud.

I was looking at that picture again I snipped out something they hairspring is on the wrong side of the pin why is that?

3 hours ago, jdm said:

Post a picture taken straight above the balance installed, and one taken laterally. Hairspring manipulation is not as easy as saying it, and many have been destroying by beginners and not. That's why I recommend that if you care about this watch, practice that skill on something else first.

When you post a picture could you try really hard to give us a clear image of the hairspring in the watch. Then good picture aimed at the regulator at an angle so we can see where they hairspring is exactly. Also what's being asked above a nice picture at a proper angle so we can see if the hairspring is actually flat.

Then I also agree with the above quote hairspring manipulation on your first watch probably isn't going to end well. We really need a hairspring to practice on or several of them that you don't care about.

 

[jdm]

5 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I was looking at that picture again I snipped out something they hairspring is on the wrong side of the pin why is that?

 

Maybe someone placed it that way to slow it a little bit.

[MattyG]

Hey guys, update. I bought timing washers. 

10 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Searching eBay I only found one listing here, and cousinsuk.com don't seem to have them. Does anyone know a good source for timing washers?

I bought them on Ebay too, Not the same listing @VWatchiegave me however but I'm sure they will work the same of course. I'll update this thread when they arrive and I can finally/hopefully complete this service. Thanks guys.

Also

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

When you post a picture could you try really hard to give us a clear image of the hairspring in the watch. Then good picture aimed at the regulator at an angle so we can see where they hairspring is exactly. Also what's being asked above a nice picture at a proper angle so we can see if the hairspring is actually flat.

 

@JohnR725 I will try to get you guys a good picture to see if the hairspring is flat. 

[VWatchie]

20 hours ago, MattyG said:

I bought them on Ebay too

I was sort of hoping they would be on offer by some material house. I don't need'em right now, but if I did I would make a more comprehensive research. Anyway, if anyone happens to know of a material house offering timing washers I'd appreciate the information!

[nickelsilver]

I am surprised they aren't available anymore! Though, I have several sets I bought (secondhand) 20+ years ago, and a couple of Bergeon sets that look to be 50 years old; I think these things never really get used up, and with screw balances becoming more the exception than the norm, it just didn't make sense to produce them anymore. I have yet to end up with an empty bottle.

 

I did find one supplier, who either have old stock or are producing, the tweezer manufacturer Fontax. They seem to group the sets by caliber size range.

 

https://fontax.ch/categorie-produit/non-classe/rondelles-de-reglage/

[JohnR725]

50 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

 

I did find one supplier, who either have old stock or are producing, the tweezer manufacturer Fontax. They seem to group the sets by caliber size range.

 

https://fontax.ch/categorie-produit/non-classe/rondelles-de-reglage/

Interesting that this website exists? I have their tweezers I rather like them fortunately I think the ones I have will last forever so I may never need any more tweezers ever again.  But when the discussion of good tweezers would come up if I looked for them the only thing the website acknowledged was that they existed. It barely had contact information so I find it interesting that they have a store. Even more interesting they had a bonus dial and timing washers?

On 1/17/2022 at 12:03 PM, VWatchie said:

I was sort of hoping they would be on offer by some material house

We may be arriving late to the party again? Several years ago and one of the BHI journals they had an article on hairsprings. Specifically they no longer existed and blue packets for the watchmakers to use. They were arriving late to the party also as they had been discontinued for quite some time was just that nobody noticed. The simplistic answer is the Swiss no longer need to manufacture generic parts. They does manufacturer for demand so generic hairsprings are gone.

In order for a material house to have an assortment a timing washers they have to have an access to timing washers. If nobody's manufacturing timing washers we can't have an assortment.

Then there's the other much much bigger problem. Everybody dig out the timing washers tell me who made them? One of the boxes that I can't conveniently find was made by the company was a US company and when I was in school the instructor said those were the best because they were actually true to the timing per weight versus the Swiss in other words the Swiss for American pocket watches her approximation.

One of my assortment says justright Then the initials GICs Switzerland on the bottom no idea who they are. The other assortment Newall I think they still exist. The third assortment best fit and they still have a presence. Because unless the material houses were really big or exist a long time ago where they had access like in America to the watch companies to buy their surplus they're not going to probably make up assortments they would have to buy from one of the wholesale material houses which are all going away because that's what they seem to be doing.

Unfortunately I suspect that there's a lot of stuff that is disappearing that would be nice to have but there isn't a big enough demand to justify them

worst-case on the timing washers I have a book that shows how to make the punch if I remember where it is I'll see if I can post an image.

Then on the website above does anyone know who the company is esSer Is never heard of it it's on all the boxes on the website above doesn't even say Switzerland but I'm going to assume that's where they're located it's not the same name as the company of the tweezers so it must be another company? That might give us a clue as to whether we can buy additional timing pictures new but I'm suspecting the answer is no

Oh and if you go back in time they used to have himI suppose somebody has checked all the online material houses to see if they exist anywhere?

Well and thinking about it there is the other problem?

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.247778/.f?sc=31&category=990672

 

[Bauertime]

When I have a problem like this, the first thing I do is find a picture of the movement and look at the position of the regulator levers for timing and beat. If the hair spring is not fouled in some way. I would bet that someone broke and reattached it or just put one on it that looked right. I would look for a parts movement. Even one with a broken staff will have a good hair spring and would provide you with needed practice for this type of repair.