Frankentimer

[jdrichard]

Just finished adding a very small usb Mimi mic to the end of a usb cord and using as input to my etimer software. It Works!

the box is an old invicta case I foamed so it is vertically sound proof. And I can turn it in any direction for 5 position testing.

[TimpanogosSlim]

I like my Weishi Nr. 1000 but on movements like the UMF 24, BFG 866, other pin-pallet 1 or 0 jewel, I wonder if they are just too noisy to get a good reading because they always look like a snow storm. 

And that makes me consider putting together something like this. 

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

I like my Weishi Nr. 1000 but on movements like the UMF 24, BFG 866, other pin-pallet 1 or 0 jewel, I wonder if they are just too noisy to get a good reading because they always look like a snow storm. 

And that makes me consider putting together something like this. 

Do it 

[Gramham]

On 1/10/2022 at 6:02 AM, jdrichard said:

Just finished adding a very small usb Mimi mic to the end of a usb cord and using as input to my etimer software. It Works!

the box is an old invicta case I foamed so it is vertically sound proof. And I can turn it in any direction for 5 position testing.

Hello @jdrichard,

When you say "my etimer software" do you mean you wrote it or that it is in your possession?

I'd like to give it a try...

g.
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[JohnR725]

On 1/9/2022 at 5:14 PM, TimpanogosSlim said:

And that makes me consider putting together something like this.

this is a hardware solution what you going to connect your hardware up to?

28 minutes ago, Gramham said:

When you say "my etimer software" do you mean you wrote it or that it is in your possession?

I'd like to give it a try..

there is other programs out there including free ones but this one can be found here. it also noticed somewhere in the page is a reference to the source the software sooner you could buy it from the original person in the UK.

https://www.etimer.net/

 

 

[Gramham]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

this is a hardware solution what you going to connect your hardware up to?

there is other programs out there including free ones but this one can be found here. it also noticed somewhere in the page is a reference to the source the software sooner you could buy it from the original person in the UK.

https://www.etimer.net/

 

 

Hello,

It looks like a 2-way collaboration between Graham Baxter (inventor) in the UK and Steve Lunn (marketer & fabricator) in the USA.

https://www.etimer.net

Is operated by Steve Lunn in the USA

http://www.delphelectronics.co.uk

Is operated by Graham Baxter in the UK

Overall, eTimer looks pretty interesting...but it comes with a relatively hefty price tag when you consider the cost of a W1000 or a W1900 (an example of which I recently bought for quite a bit less than USD400).

Edited August 29, 2022 by Gramham
capitalization

[JohnR725]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:02 PM, jdrichard said:

Just finished adding a very small usb Mimi mic to the end of a usb cord and using as input to my etimer software. It Works!

out of curiosity doesn't that software come with a microphone?

37 minutes ago, Gramham said:

It looks like a 2-way collaboration between Graham Baxter (inventor) in the UK and Steve Lunn (marketer & fabricator) in the USA.

perhaps now but originally the software came from Graham Baxter and he is headed on the market for quite some time.

39 minutes ago, Gramham said:

Overall, eTimer looks pretty interesting...but it comes with a relatively hefty price tag when you consider the cost of a W1000 or a W1900 (an example of which I recently bought for quite a bit less than USD400).

yes today that's a problem in inexpensive Chinese timing machine with a nice microphone all self-contained and for the most part works really well. Versus having to acquire a PC and the software and the microphone is just a clip on it doesn't rotate in the multi-positions like the Chinese one. On the other hand the software is all sorts of interesting enhancements but the hobbyist budget can you justify it?

Or as I pointed out there's other software out there. For instance there's this program

http://www.watchoscope.com/

notice it comes in two versions initially it's running in full mode and then if you don't pay for it goes to a white mode for free forever or you can pay a little money and have the full version. The only real downfall is it's a sort of a DIY for the microphone. Unfortunately the microphone is key your microphone is up right you get a good clean signal and you can't do proper timing.

then ill have to do a search I know there's some other software out there I just Memorable word always lurking.

 

 

 

[Gramham]

14 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity doesn't that software come with a microphone?

perhaps now but originally the software came from Graham Baxter and he is headed on the market for quite some time.

yes today that's a problem in inexpensive Chinese timing machine with a nice microphone all self-contained and for the most part works really well. Versus having to acquire a PC and the software and the microphone is just a clip on it doesn't rotate in the multi-positions like the Chinese one. On the other hand the software is all sorts of interesting enhancements but the hobbyist budget can you justify it?

Or as I pointed out there's other software out there. For instance there's this program

http://www.watchoscope.com/

notice it comes in two versions initially it's running in full mode and then if you don't pay for it goes to a white mode for free forever or you can pay a little money and have the full version. The only real downfall is it's a sort of a DIY for the microphone. Unfortunately the microphone is key your microphone is up right you get a good clean signal and you can't do proper timing.

then ill have to do a search I know there's some other software out there I just Memorable word always lurking.

 

 

 

I have downloaded an evaluation copy of Watch-O-Scope and it looks nice, but I don't know if anyone had performed any head-to-head comparisons regarding its accuracy vs. some kind of trusted benchmark.  I seem to remember Mark doing a video  on software timegraphers some time ago, but I don't remember the software(s) he evaluated.   I do remember him saying that they had some ways to go. 

The problem he was solving, if I remember correctly, was something to do with an extra strike in the escapement (pallet fork cock impact?) that most of the timegrapher software wasn't able to detect.  Manual waveform analysis and a deep understanding of Swiss Lever Escapement dynamics did.  I was impressed.

There's an open source timegrapher software out there.  Personally speaking, I find it hard to use because the interface is so bare bones and I'm not sure any documentation exists.  I couldn't find any.  It produces pretty nice looking wave forms (which are useful in and of themselves), but the developer is loathe to provide some very critical numbers (amplitude, notably) because they turn out to actually be averages, not absolute numbers.  This, I believe, is part of the proprietary "microcode magic" that is going on in the microcontroller-driven world of dedicated timegraphers.

Recently I have picked up a W1900, a guitar transducer, one of those 3D printed microphone stands and a bunch of assorted microphones so as to be able to perform some experiments and maybe generate some kind of comparative analysis between them.

But that's all going to have to wait a while...because today I picked up a meaty consulting contract that's going to keep me occupied for the next little while.  I also really need to start building up my practical watchmaking skills.  

Consequently, my Forum posting is going to be taking the back seat for a little while.

[lurk mode activated].

g.
-----
 

[Mark]

1 hour ago, Gramham said:

Overall, eTimer looks pretty interesting...but it comes with a relatively hefty price tag when you consider the cost of a W1000 or a W1900 (an example of which I recently bought for quite a bit less than USD400)

It's great software - but it's not been updated in years and its terrible for touch screen laptops because you cannot change the size of the buttons and this means you need a mouse or laptop with trackpad. So it takes a lot of space up.

28 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity doesn't that software come with a microphone?

No but graham used to sell converted mics from vintage machines or he will convert yours. I supplied an old one from a Greiner machine I had and he converted it and did a bit of referb.

 

Incidentally, I now use the OneOf Accuracy Pro now and the software is excellent and touch screen friendly.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oneof-accuracy-pro

One side bonus is the OneOf microphone works well with Graham Baxters eTimer software too so best of both worlds.

 

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, Gramham said:

head-to-head comparisons regarding its accuracy vs. some kind of trusted benchmark.

accuracy isn't really the issue with the software. One of the key elements for all timing machines is a proper. A capacitive microphone found on phones or even at the top of this discussion just doesn't cut it. So one of the downfalls with the software here if the microphone doesn't work well then the results are questionable. The same thing happens with apps where we've gone down a path of improper diagnostic based on faulty information. But as far as accuracy goes that's not really an issue

16 minutes ago, Gramham said:

a guitar transducer, one of those 3D printed microphone stands and a bunch of assorted microphones so as to be able to perform some experiments and maybe generate some kind of comparative analysis between them.

some more on the discussion group we discussed a lot of the microphone stuff. You use have to search and find it we've tried all kinds of different sensors and things. Some definitely work better than others but isn't always the sensor there's other stuff at play here

11 minutes ago, Mark said:

No but graham used to sell converted mics from vintage machines or he will convert yours. I supplied an old one from a Greiner machine I had and he converted it and did a bit of referb.

actually when I asked the question I already knew the answer it does come with a microphone. I was just curious in this discussion why it wasn't being used.  I snipped out some images so everyone can see with the microphone looks like. Sexy a rather nice microphone the clip works really well it's not a harsh clip like some clips are and it is a nice soft cord to it works very well. It just isn't as nice as a microphone that rotates.

14 minutes ago, Mark said:

Incidentally, I now use the OneOf Accuracy Pro now and the software is excellent and touch screen friendly.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oneof-accuracy-pro

One side bonus is the OneOf microphone works well with Graham Baxters eTimer software too so best of both

perhaps you could do a reviewer make a YouTube video on the software. Microphone looks like it's really nicely made.

what I'd be really curious about is looking at the price on cousins £2,760.00 versus this on cousins Witschi ChronoMaster Pro at a cost of £2,395.00  similar price how they compare?  I wonder if anyone living in the UK can ask cousins nicely if they can borrow one of each and then run a comparison do a review.

 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/witschi-chronomaster

[Mark]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

actually when I asked the question I already knew the answer it does come with a microphone

I forgot about the clip - you are, of course, correct.

22 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

perhaps you could do a reviewer make a YouTube video on the software. Microphone looks like it's really nicely made.

 

It is nicely made - perhaps a review could be done, I will consider it.

23 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

what I'd be really curious about is looking at the price on cousins £2,760.00 versus this on cousins Witschi ChronoMaster Pro at a cost of £2,395.00  similar price how they compare

Me too - I would love to do a comparison. But I can assure you that after using the Elma machine a few years back which is almost the same as the Witschi - I would consider this mic a lot better. The Elma/Witschi one could not rotate fully which makes Dynamic Poising awkward. Perhaps the new Witschi mics have been updated.

[JohnR725]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:54 AM, Mark said:

Me too - I would love to do a comparison. But I can assure you that after using the Elma machine a few years back which is almost the same as the Witschi - I would consider this mic a lot better. The Elma/Witschi one could not rotate fully which makes Dynamic Poising awkward. Perhaps the new Witschi mics have been updated

yes I've seen the blue Elma machines that other than the case do appear to be identical to Witschi  I think sometimes at a lesser price at least in the European countries where they appear.

then as nice as the witschi microphone is which is very nice I would agree the fact that it cannot rotate 365° is definitely a problem or perhaps an annoyance.

On 8/29/2022 at 4:54 AM, Mark said:

Perhaps the new Witschi mics have been updated.

the new microphones definitely looked interesting. There specifications say a 45° angle so would do dynamic poising much nicer. Doesn't say whether you can rotate them continuously around without tangling up the cord though. Then it looks like the capable of actually being adjusted to do timing in 12 separate positions. So they've definitely upgraded the microphone.

[Jon]

On 8/29/2022 at 12:54 PM, Mark said:

I forgot about the clip - you are, of course, correct.

It is nicely made - perhaps a review could be done, I will consider it.

Me too - I would love to do a comparison. But I can assure you that after using the Elma machine a few years back which is almost the same as the Witschi - I would consider this mic a lot better. The Elma/Witschi one could not rotate fully which makes Dynamic Poising awkward. Perhaps the new Witschi mics have been updated.

By the sounds of it the One of Accuracy Pro has all the bells and whistles with a touch screen display and can show a trace(s) and an analogue waveform, but apart from the touch screen, is it worth throwing down a couple more grand for it rather than Graham Baxter's set up? I was thinking of getting something that can show me the waveform, which will pick up idiosyncrasies in the escapement that a trace might not. I would love someone with an One of Accuracy to do a quick video review maybe? Mark... wink, wink...

Edited August 31, 2022 by Jon

[JohnR725]

22 minutes ago, Jon said:

is it worth throwing down a couple more grand for it rather than Graham Baxter's set up? I was thinking of getting something that can show me the waveform,

you forgot about the witschi that I mentioned. If you're looking for a cheap oscilloscope in horology then the cheapest version would be?

I was going to say the Graham Baxter's set up as it really does have a nice oscilloscope. but the company that makes Mark's set up does have a much cheaper version found at the link below and they do have what looks like a oscilloscope on the display.

https://h2i.ch/products/accuracy2-watch-acoustic-measurement/

then what about the witschi machine mention? Normally to get something was on oscilloscope view it have to be a business with very deep pockets is there very expensive but what about the newer? as you can see from the images to separate microphones with USB cords. So rather than buying the microphone with which is basically now a PC they now have just the microphones and the software. the Pro version ads in additional features and claims it's comparable to the Chronoscope S1 which is about £4000 so yes it's cheaper.

I snipped out the table so you can see the difference the software looks like you need the Pro version to get the oscilloscope.

 

[Jon]

On 8/31/2022 at 1:41 PM, JohnR725 said:

I was going to say the Graham Baxter's set up as it really does have a nice oscilloscope. but the company that makes Mark's set up does have a much cheaper version found at the link below and they do have what looks like a oscilloscope on the display.

https://h2i.ch/products/accuracy2-watch-acoustic-measurement/

Yeah, it's cheaper, but not a realistic option in a watch workshop, especially measuring in vertical positions. The setup has to have a dedicated microphone adjustable to various positions

 

On 8/31/2022 at 1:41 PM, JohnR725 said:

then what about the witschi machine mention? Normally to get something was on oscilloscope view it have to be a business with very deep pockets

The point I was making was, is it worth spending a couple of grand more for something that Graham Baxter has already invented. His software shows a trace and a waveform, but doesn't have a touch screen or very user friendly apparently, but it appears to be offering the same readings as the Witschi for thousands less.

I could spend a few hundred on a system by Baxter that Witschi offers for much more, just that it doesn't have touch screen. An opinion based on experience is what I was looking for, to make a decision on what is best. I have read all the info on all of them, but still can't fathom why Graham Baxter's software isn't the winner based on price. OK you have to move a mouse, but seriously, is that really a problem? 

Someone with some experience on any of these software chip in please?

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

Yeah, it's cheaper, but not a realistic option in a watch workshop, especially measuring in vertical positions. The setup has to have a dedicated microphone adjustable to various positions

yes the real shop with real watchmakers nothing beats a real microphone that can rotate in multiple positions. Or if you have a heck of a lot of money nothing beats an automatic microphone that does all that for you but that's way more money. The lack of a proper microphone does hold back a lot of the software out there especially anything that's running on a cell phone typically unless it has an external microphone.

1 hour ago, Jon said:

The point I was making was, is it worth spending a couple of grand more for something that Graham Baxter has already invented. His software shows a trace and a waveform, but doesn't have a touch screen or very user friendly apparently, but it appears to be offering the same readings as the Witschi for thousands less.

I could spend a few hundred on a system by Baxter that Witschi offers for much more, just that it doesn't have touch screen. An opinion based on experience is what I was looking for, to make a decision on what is best. I have read all the info on all of them, but still can't fathom why Graham Baxter's software isn't the winner based on price. OK you have to move a mouse, but seriously, is that really a problem? 

Someone with some experience on any of these software chip in please?

okay here's the problem let's look what you're saying well you're right both have a trace and both have a oscilloscope. If both are running on a PC they have a mouse.

what which is done is something really clever. If you look at their older machines are all hardware-based with a heck of a lot hardware. But the newer machines with the touchscreens are running Windows CE. I know that because when I updated the firmware on the machine at work I looked at the update to see what it was. So it makes it very flexible for them to change updating give you new features which is rather nice.

I'm attaching an image I give you a challenge this is what witschi has in their software oh wait a minor problem notice the time base that's physical so there's a minor problem in that Baxter software comes with a microphone which is just a microphone. The witschi microphone has additional stuff in there because somewhere is that precision time base it's not in the PC side has to be in the microphone somewhere. So they've integrated a lot of the electronics probably into the base so the microphone is more than just a microphone. So that would free up the PC did not have to be so powerful the process things.

so as I work with a witschi machine that runs most of the software I think the software is rather nice. And goes far beyond everything else. But if you just need a graphical display with oscilloscope then go with something cheaper because this is a professional product at unfortunately a professional place no matter how nice it is.

oh and for some reason you want a touchscreen I think it may give up some features I'd have to go through the user manuals see what the difference is not sure that actually has everything that the software/microphone has. Because basically the software/microphone is emulating a higher end machine. And then because in this link were tossing in a well it's basically a tablet I'm sure it's just a PC but it has a touchscreen and little more money so he can have a touchscreen if you want it or go with the pure software and get I think probably a better deal

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/witschi-watch-expert-4th-generation?code=T46232