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What is this indicating?


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Whoa!  It's indicating that, if the fork can last 8 full seconds on that bucking balance wheel, it will make it to the rodeo finals!

Seriously though, I don't own a timegrapher yet (someday when I have more money) but may I guess that those traces maybe mean a bottom balance pivot is doing Chubby Checker's Twist down in that bottom jewel?  It seems like there's a bit of shimmy there.  Badly worn pivot?  Or jewel hole?

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1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

I think it's a bent pivot on the escape wheel.

Is your interpretation based on period of occurance only?    Could this be indicating a wobbling escape wheel? 

Educate me gents, please 😩

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Random thought I assume you demagnetized it?

The nice thing about the graphical display is the meaning hasn't changed since the first machine spit out paper. Although some of the timing machine manuals you wonder about the mental state of the people who Were interpreting the results. The one I'm attaching is pretty straightforward. Then I snipped out an image of what it probably is.

Then unless you verified the lift angle your lift angle is probably wrong. But that's not going to change the graphical display output only the amplitude.

escape wheel out around or magnetism.JPG

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF

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16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Random thought I assume you demagnetized it?

The nice thing about the graphical display is the meaning hasn't changed since the first machine spit out paper. Although some of the timing machine manuals you wonder about the mental state of the people who Were interpreting the results. The one I'm attaching is pretty straightforward. Then I snipped out an image of what it probably is.

Then unless you verified the lift angle your lift angle is probably wrong. But that's not going to change the graphical display output only the amplitude.

escape wheel out around or magnetism.JPG

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 3 downloads

Big thanks. Will check today

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On 1/8/2022 at 8:50 AM, jdrichard said:

From an old picked watch. What is this signal indicating

8439898F-557B-4975-BD83-EDFABE496E61.jpeg

Update. It was magnetized. Put my small compass on the balance and ta da movement. I demagnetized it and here is the result (somehow I forgot to do this???)

8EAEEFCD-8E14-4A03-8CD4-E9CF11B95E2D.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

This is all very interesting.  I will certainly have to get some kind of timegrapher in the future.

At one time sticker shock would be an excuse not to have a timing machine. Anything resembling a professional Swiss machine would usually be in the thousands of dollars and still is in the thousands of dollars. So that would be a good excuse not to have one.

But the Chinese have all kinds of timing machines the recommended ones are the 1000 and the 1900 preferred. Then the pricing of the machines are really interesting in that it depends on who's selling it. Then they can be purchased from the usual places like Amazon and eBay. You just have to pay attention to the pricing usually the US sellers are charging more money Chinese sellers are usually but not necessarily less. Amazon has a 1900 $180 but looks like the seller is in China which explains why the shipping is going to take several weeks.

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21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Random thought I assume you demagnetized it?

The nice thing about the graphical display is the meaning hasn't changed since the first machine spit out paper. Although some of the timing machine manuals you wonder about the mental state of the people who Were interpreting the results. The one I'm attaching is pretty straightforward. Then I snipped out an image of what it probably is.

Then unless you verified the lift angle your lift angle is probably wrong. But that's not going to change the graphical display output only the amplitude.

escape wheel out around or magnetism.JPG

Timing-Machine-Charts.PDF 5.32 MB · 4 downloads

That attachment should be made into a poster and hung on the wall...

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Magnetism in a watch is interesting because normally you would never see it? At least in modern times because the demagnetizer is right next to the timing machine normally. At least it was at school and that's what I was taught. Although I know watchmaker's today that will demagnetized before cleaning after clearing before timing after timing they get really obsessed so magnetize watches on the timing machine not likely to happen or be seen.

A long time ago I was asked to evaluate a small collection of watches with the owners newfangled Chinese 1000 timing machine that I had recommended. He was confused with the reading he was getting. I timed his watches exactly as they were found no attempt to demagnetized clean etc.  Then I was really excited about the opportunity to compare the Chinese 1000 with my witschi watch expert 2 machine.

When evaluating timing machines to avoid complications it works out better if the various timing machines can look at the exact same watch at the exact same time. To understand what I mean there is a sample watch one of the other watches and you notice both microphones holding the watch in a way that you normally would not. Then the results may not always be exactly the same because you can't start both machines at the exact same time. They won't be of evaluating or averaging over the exact same part of the waveform they're always be some variations but this is the closest I can get to both machines at the same time.

As you can see that interesting sine wave effect. It also shows a problem of liquid crystal screen timing machines versus the old paper tape or in this particular case software that simulates paper tape. Although I don't know why on the paper tape simulation there should be two lines and it looks like the watch visually is perfect in beat unless you look at the numbers? But in any case all three are showing the same thing an interesting sine wave which I had never seen before. As we see above once the magnetic field is gone the watch still desperately needs to be serviced but the beautiful sine wave is gone.

 

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch magnetized 2 timing machines.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch magnetized.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch demagnetized.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch.JPG

timing machine evaluation two machines one watch.JPG

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Magnetism in a watch is interesting because normally you would never see it? At least in modern times because the demagnetizer is right next to the timing machine normally. At least it was at school and that's what I was taught. Although I know watchmaker's today that will demagnetized before cleaning after clearing before timing after timing they get really obsessed so magnetize watches on the timing machine not likely to happen or be seen.

A long time ago I was asked to evaluate a small collection of watches with the owners newfangled Chinese 1000 timing machine that I had recommended. He was confused with the reading he was getting. I timed his watches exactly as they were found no attempt to demagnetized clean etc.  Then I was really excited about the opportunity to compare the Chinese 1000 with my witschi watch expert 2 machine.

When evaluating timing machines to avoid complications it works out better if the various timing machines can look at the exact same watch at the exact same time. To understand what I mean there is a sample watch one of the other watches and you notice both microphones holding the watch in a way that you normally would not. Then the results may not always be exactly the same because you can't start both machines at the exact same time. They won't be of evaluating or averaging over the exact same part of the waveform they're always be some variations but this is the closest I can get to both machines at the same time.

As you can see that interesting sine wave effect. It also shows a problem of liquid crystal screen timing machines versus the old paper tape or in this particular case software that simulates paper tape. Although I don't know why on the paper tape simulation there should be two lines and it looks like the watch visually is perfect in beat unless you look at the numbers? But in any case all three are showing the same thing an interesting sine wave which I had never seen before. As we see above once the magnetic field is gone the watch still desperately needs to be serviced but the beautiful sine wave is gone.

 

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch magnetized 2 timing machines.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch magnetized.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch demagnetized.JPG

Magnetism  Howard pocket watch.JPG

timing machine evaluation two machines one watch.JPG

Excellent way to assess the situation. I simply take a look at the balance on etimer and the w1900 to ensure that the old pocket watch is close to accurate. What did they do before electricity????

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5 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

I need to have a sheet of lift angles:).

The problem with lift angles are there not really needed until your measuring amplitude. They're probably needed if somebody was drawing the escapement but it's not until we get a timing machine or the ability of a timing machine to figure out amplitudes that we need lift angles. Which means pocket watches have no lift angles listed. This means you have to follow the standard method found in the video at the First link to figure out the lift angle. The second link has a chart.

Then somewhere in the discussion group we've  discussed the video up finding a lift angle. I find that if I use a highlighting pen yellow in color did as liquid ink  that it makes a really nice.on the balance wheel looks almost invisible..  At least in standard light with the UV flashlight is fluoresces intently I find it makes it a lot easier  to see the marking.

Then if you get obsessed with lift angles for pocket watches  or you work for a crazy boss who  would like to see the amplitude looking perfect you could make a list.  But if you're making a list do a better job than I did  because having a company with the size just doesn't cut it they had lots of watches typically of that size you should really list the model number or serial number or something.. But still here's a list gives you an idea what pocket watches can be..

https://youtu.be/-Xgcck692js

https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/lift_angles

ball Illinois 12 size 45°
Elgin 12 size 55°
Elgin 18 size 49°
Elgin 590 16 size 21 J 48°
Elgin GM Wheeler 16 size 52°
Elgin 6 size 62°
Hamilton 12 size 48°
Hamilton 912 12 size 38°
Hamilton 940 16 size 60°
Hamilton 992 16 size 48°
Hamilton 992B 51.5°
Hamilton 992E 42°
Louis Audemar 44°
Hampton 3/0 52°
Illinois 12 size 45°
Illinois 305 16 size 48°
Illinois six size 62°
Lange and Sohne  40°
Longines  pocket watch 35°
Waltham 18 size 38.5°
Waltham 1888 16 size 60°
Waltham 21 jewel 645 16 size 42°
Waltham Crescent Street 45°
Waltham Riverside 16 size 44°

 

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Interesting that there's such variability in lift angles among earlier watches. Any idea why that might be? I suppose if you're manufacturing everything in smaller scales, as well as at the beginnings of the mass production era, there would be less standardization, but I have to think there's a functional reason most modern watches are all in the neighborhood of 52°... What would be the advantages/disadvantages of 62° or 38.5° (the most extreme in the list from a quick glance) over the currently predominant 52°-ish. 

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4 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Interesting that there's such variability in lift angles among earlier watches. Any idea why that might be? I suppose if you're manufacturing everything in smaller scales, as well as at the beginnings of the mass production era, there would be less standardization, but I have to think there's a functional reason most modern watches are all in the neighborhood of 52°... What would be the advantages/disadvantages of 62° or 38.5° (the most extreme in the list from a quick glance) over the currently predominant 52°-ish. 

Smaller lift angle means less time the balance is engaged with the escapement, which is a goal for good timekeeping. It's easier to achieve with larger movements as proportionally the various "plays" can be smaller. So pocketwatches are often around 40 degrees, wristwatches creep up closer to or above 50. 60 is odd on a pocketwatch but as seen above can happen (these are very old ones). Very small wristwatch movements are often above 55; JLC 101 and 104 are often at 60 and several other of their calibers are 56 or 58.

 

The Swiss sort of standardized around 49-53 mid 20th century as it was found through practical experimentation that they got excellent results there- with an ease of produce-ability.  There are exceptions, the Omega 321 for example is around 40, while its close cousin the 861 is 50. Also, with higher beat rates the geometry of the escapement changed, with 20 or 21 tooth escape wheels becoming common which lend themselves more to a 50ish degree angle.

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This thread caused me to go educate myself on this topic.  I read several papers and watch a couple of videos.  Very interesting stuff.  The old watch timers (Vibrograf) did not calculate amplitude.  When did this become "a thing?"  Maybe the old watchmakers did this visually.

Re demagnetizing watches.  I watch a video a while back...it was an interview with Fried back in '92. One thing he talked about was the issue of demagnetizing watches in the early days.  Was not so simple as it is today!!

 

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1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Interesting that there's such variability in lift angles among earlier watches. Any idea why that might be?

One of the problems with lift angle at least American pocket watches is what if they're not adjusted correctly?  I'm attaching a witschi document which talks about lift angle out amplitude is measured etc. Plus I snipped out an image.

Notice the start of lift angle has the pallet fork resting on the banking pin. The same banking pin an American pocket watches that can be rotated? This is man considerably the banking pins after not quite in the right place is going to change the lift angle. But whether or not the change is really going to matter that much. The problem with mechanical watches they are mechanical they're just not that perfect in real life. So as long as you get the lift angle somewhat close it's fine usually.

lift angle witschi definition.JPG

Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf

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41 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This thread caused me to go educate myself on this topic.  I read several papers and watch a couple of videos.  Very interesting stuff.  The old watch timers (Vibrograf) did not calculate amplitude.  When did this become "a thing?"  Maybe the old watchmakers did this visually.

Before these newfangled electronic things the watchmaker just looked at the balance wheel and somehow knew what the amplitude was. Which explains one of the reasons I was so excited about getting a timing machine  as I always had a hard time seeing that.

You might find the link below to the PDF interesting. Even though the cover picture shows there transistorized machine it's the identical manual it came with their vacuum tube machine. It's also missing something that came in the original manual? At least it was there in the vacuum tube machine maybe it's not in this manual but it would have to be because?

Notice on PDF pages 4 and 5 talks about the settings and how you can pick up different parts of the waveform. It on the bottom of page 10 it talks what amplitude which is interesting because this machine can't measure amplitude? Is it explains about amplitude continuing on to the next page tells you how to visually verify what the amplitude is. Then on PDF page 12 it tells you how you can measure amplitude in a closed case with a paper tape machine if you have the missing item? In the original manual was a  clear plastic printed page that you would overlay on the paper tape and you can measure in milliseconds how far apart things more. So combined with the knowledge that you learned from the rest of the manual you can figure out the amplitude of a watch with a paper tape machine.

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

 

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42 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Before these newfangled electronic things the watchmaker just looked at the balance wheel and somehow knew what the amplitude was. Which explains one of the reasons I was so excited about getting a timing machine  as I always had a hard time seeing that.

You might find the link below to the PDF interesting. Even though the cover picture shows there transistorized machine it's the identical manual it came with their vacuum tube machine. It's also missing something that came in the original manual? At least it was there in the vacuum tube machine maybe it's not in this manual but it would have to be because?

Notice on PDF pages 4 and 5 talks about the settings and how you can pick up different parts of the waveform. It on the bottom of page 10 it talks what amplitude which is interesting because this machine can't measure amplitude? Is it explains about amplitude continuing on to the next page tells you how to visually verify what the amplitude is. Then on PDF page 12 it tells you how you can measure amplitude in a closed case with a paper tape machine if you have the missing item? In the original manual was a  clear plastic printed page that you would overlay on the paper tape and you can measure in milliseconds how far apart things more. So combined with the knowledge that you learned from the rest of the manual you can figure out the amplitude of a watch with a paper tape machine.

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

 

You can measure amplitude using Slow Mo on you iphone.  Most accurate way.  You can also measure the beat error as well by looking at the left-of and right-of center when the balance stops.  Should stop in the exact same place on each opposing side.  Which means the balance has swung clockwise and counter clockwise the same degree distance.  Just saying

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