Unitas 429 18"' pocket watch movement running terrible, diagnostic advice request

[TimpanogosSlim]

Spent my mid-day bench time on a movement that means nothing to me, which i do not clearly remember buying. That i might steal some parts from. 

But since I'm trying to learn, I'd appreciate some advice on diagnosing it's horrible performance.

It's had a hard life. Under microscope it's clear that the top balance jewel is cracked. The incabloc spring is missing a leg on the top too. 

I suspect that distortions in the hairspring are the main problem? Maybe excessive endshake as well but i need to read up on how to gauge that. 

I followed the oil chart for the unitas 6431 when i reassembled. I have 9010, D5, 9415, etc. I was pretty proud of how well i lubed the palates this time but i don't have a picture of it. 

Really liking my digital microscope. A Hayear HY-3307: https://www.amazon.com/HAYEAR-Output-Industry-C-Mount-Microscope/dp/B07JKSGVH2

Some shots of the hairspring and pivots: 

The display on the timegrapher is all snow, of course. 

Here's a short video of the performance: 

 

I understand that these divots are a hacky method of slightly raising the balance cock? 

This movement has those really stiff alignment pins that make you have to pry stuff off. 

And the resulting damage: 

 

Anyway, thanks for your advice in this academic exercise. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by TimpanogosSlim

[VWatchie]

9 minutes ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

But since I'm trying to learn, I'd appreciate some advice on diagnosing it's horrible performance

To be able to diagnose you need to fully understand how a watch works and how the various parts interact. A good start is to gradually take it fully apart and gradually reflect upon the purpose and function of each part. Also, read as much as you can (WRT is a good place) and there are plenty of great watchmaking channels on YouTube.

We're not going to be able to provide any help unless you provide pictures and specifics.

[TimpanogosSlim]

1 minute ago, VWatchie said:

To be able to diagnose you need to fully understand how a watch works and how the various parts interact. A good start is to gradually take it fully apart and gradually reflect upon the purpose and function of each part. Also, read as much as you can (WRT is a good place) and there are plenty of great watchmaking channels on YouTube.

We're not going to be able to provide any help unless you provide pictures and specifics.

sorry, refresh. I fumbled the keyboard initially causing an incomplete post to appear. There are many pictures and video now. 

[Nucejoe]

 

9 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

Under microscope it's clear that the top balance jewel is cracked. 

The jewel and shock spring should be replaced and terminal curve sorted out.

Good luck

 

 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 

The jewel and shock spring should be replaced and terminal curve sorted out.

Good luck

 

 

That sounds like a good start, and of course, make sure as much power as possible is free to travel through the train of wheels. That is, check end-shake, side-shake, jewels, pivots, that the arbor spins freely inside the barrel, and so on.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

But since I'm trying to learn, I'd appreciate some advice on diagnosing it's horrible performance.

Always helpful to define horrible performance? Because everybody has a different terminology of horrible performance or at least everyone can have a difference.

11 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

I suspect that distortions in the hairspring are the main problem? Maybe excessive endshake as well but i need to read up on how to gauge that. 

The hairspring distortion is interesting in that yes it's there. But how bad is it really? I was looking at the video and not sure how big of a problem it really is. It does need to be fixed though but? The video is interesting in that they hairspring appears to be centered doesn't look as bad as some hairsprings I've seen. It would be nice to have they couple of pictures of the balance wheel in the watch looking straight down and some looking  in sideways. In other words if you look in is your hairspring flat or is it touching the balance arm for instance? This is always the problem with looking at hairspring is out of the watch, out of the watch they're not a problem other than visually maybe they don't look wonderful. Which is why we need pictures of the balance wheel in the watch so you look at they hairspring and see how it looks there.

 

 

[jdm]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Always helpful to define horrible performance?

Like the OP wrote: The display on the timegrapher is all snow, of course. 

 

14 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

I suspect that distortions in the hairspring are the main problem?

That has to be corrected and it could be that hairspring is touching somewhere, but as mentioned what you want first and foremost is the balance turning on regular surfaces.

 

14 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

Anyway, thanks for your advice in this academic exercise. 

Why academic. The objective should be learning how to troubleshoot and execute the repair. On which watch one do that is not important as long is realistic to the present skills and tools of the person. Watches can come and go, but the gained knowledge and ability is supposed to stay. 

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, jdm said:

Like the OP wrote: The display on the timegrapher is all snow, of course. 

It would've been nice to have a picture but you're right my reading skills suck

Edited December 19, 2021 by JohnR725

[Nucejoe]

A cracked jewel voids any tg data even if graph was nice line, Not to mention that balance rim seems a bit out of round or flat. 

Excellent observation by JohnR, in that the oscilator seem unaffected by the distortion in hairspring and missing leg of lyre spring.

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

I needed to think about the images because something was bothering me? For instance the balance jewel is broken reasonably common except this is a incabloc I'm not saying it's impossible but they shouldn't break.  I snipped out something from one of the images attached so you can see an interesting problem. When people are learning how to Install balance wheels in they don't always get The pivot into the hole. This one's a little more challenging because there's a raised lip. So we see the all too common scratches from trying to get the balance in and the bonus indents. This probably happened with the balance bridge was screwed down it puts too much pressure and then you get a indent. This is where perhaps for learning purposes if you can't see if the pivot is in the jewel perhaps just remove the entire assembly to make it a lot easier to see if the pivot is where it's supposed to be.

Normally it should be impossible to break the jewel and I have a couple of videos show why. But what if you angle your balance staff because it's not in the lower hole? Now you're at a much greater angle than what it was designed for that's probably what broke the balance jewel.

Then I snipped out an image from the video. Nice for seeing that they hairspring looks reasonably round despite the weird bend but it's not entirely helpful for the other problem. As they hairspring flat a really hard thing to see  at times and looking straight down very problematic. If you look at the hairspring at the top you look at the shadowing and you look at the hairspring at the bottom of the shadowing its crystal ball time? So looking at my crystal ball because I really can't tell it just guessing it looks like the top part of the hairspring is probably touching the balance arm and the lower part is up where it's supposed to be or higher than it's supposed to be. It's really hard to tell with the shadowing. This is where sideways views are angular views are much much better and even that for hairsprings are sometimes really hard to tell. 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/u9MePbIx3ZI

https://youtu.be/8fdtEU1hJ4Q

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The hairspring distortion is interesting in that yes it's there. But how bad is it really? I was looking at the video and not sure how big of a problem it really is. It does need to be fixed though but? The video is interesting in that they hairspring appears to be centered doesn't look as bad as some hairsprings I've seen. It would be nice to have they couple of pictures of the balance wheel in the watch looking straight down and some looking  in sideways. In other words if you look in is your hairspring flat or is it touching the balance arm for instance? This is always the problem with looking at hairspring is out of the watch, out of the watch they're not a problem other than visually maybe they don't look wonderful. Which is why we need pictures of the balance wheel in the watch so you look at they hairspring and see how it looks there.

Yeah it started out worse than it is in the video. 

I will put a macro lens on a digital camera tomorrow or the next day and try to get some more angles on it. 

This was a movement i don't remember buying 10 years ago. It appears that for a time i was in the habit of separating the balance from the cock for storage and cleaning. It must have made sense at the time. I am pretty sure i did this so that the balance cock could go through cleaning loose and then i would just swish the hairspring, etc, in one-dip. 

Reinstalling the balance on the mainplate and just making sure things are arranged so that nothing will interfere with it during cleaning makes far more sense, and that's what I'm doing these days

 

14 hours ago, jdm said:

Like the OP wrote: The display on the timegrapher is all snow, of course. 

 

That has to be corrected and it could be that hairspring is touching somewhere, but as mentioned what you want first and foremost is the balance turning on regular surfaces.

Yeah. I will have to try and source some replacements for the jewels. It seems likely that i will have to just source another whole movement. 

I mean, it seems likely to me that technically the same incabloc parts went into a lot of other similarly sized pocket watch movements. But i don't have the knowledge of how to find one. 

I have a Unitas 455 that runs perfect with less than 0.2ms beat error and needs a new barrel arbor and matching screw because someone, probably me, didn't know that for a while Unitas was using reverse threaded screws for both wheels on the barrel bridge.  

I could see whether those jewels fit, I guess? 

 

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I needed to think about the images because something was bothering me? For instance the balance jewel is broken reasonably common except this is a incabloc I'm not saying it's impossible but they shouldn't break.  I snipped out something from one of the images attached so you can see an interesting problem. When people are learning how to Install balance wheels in they don't always get The pivot into the hole. This one's a little more challenging because there's a raised lip. So we see the all too common scratches from trying to get the balance in and the bonus indents. This probably happened with the balance bridge was screwed down it puts too much pressure and then you get a indent. This is where perhaps for learning purposes if you can't see if the pivot is in the jewel perhaps just remove the entire assembly to make it a lot easier to see if the pivot is where it's supposed to be.

Normally it should be impossible to break the jewel and I have a couple of videos show why. But what if you angle your balance staff because it's not in the lower hole? Now you're at a much greater angle than what it was designed for that's probably what broke the balance jewel.

Then I snipped out an image from the video. Nice for seeing that they hairspring looks reasonably round despite the weird bend but it's not entirely helpful for the other problem. As they hairspring flat a really hard thing to see  at times and looking straight down very problematic. If you look at the hairspring at the top you look at the shadowing and you look at the hairspring at the bottom of the shadowing its crystal ball time? So looking at my crystal ball because I really can't tell it just guessing it looks like the top part of the hairspring is probably touching the balance arm and the lower part is up where it's supposed to be or higher than it's supposed to be. It's really hard to tell with the shadowing. This is where sideways views are angular views are much much better and even that for hairsprings are sometimes really hard to tell. 

 

 

Yeah i have some sympathy for those who came before me because the pins that the bridges rest on fit extra snug and that makes careful positioning of pivots fairly trying. 

Can't imagine why there is so much damage to the plating on the balance cock. 

I'll check whether it is touching the arm. 

It turns out that i have a balance truing caliper so i can check to see if the balance is in round and stuff. 

[JohnR725]

30 minutes ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

Yeah. I will have to try and source some replacements for the jewels. It seems likely that i will have to just source another whole movement. 

I mean, it seems likely to me that technically the same incabloc parts went into a lot of other similarly sized pocket watch movements. But i don't have the knowledge of how to find one. 

Minor problem with looking for a  movement would be?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Unitas_429

Variations will be the problem this will make it interesting for finding parts. Fortunately this is a watch repair discussion group we might actually know how to find parts as opposed to buying another movement. For instance I have a link down there and then list all sorts of names of people who made watches. Then the next link we find your movement kind of? Yes the discussion is about a 429 but look carefully at your main plate is that a letter after the 429 and is that letter changing anything at all? Because if you go back to the first link and go through and find your watch yes they list the parts separately for each one but I'm not sure if there's any difference in this particular case? But you do have to be careful about those letters they can change things.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/

 

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=UT_429

Then we go through the list looking for a balance jewel and I find one. Which of course brings up lots of questions and I have like why is there only one? Sometimes the upper and lower will be different usually the upper is physically bigger usually the cap jewel is always thicker but sometimes the hole jewel for upper and lower is identical. The indication right now is that it is at least one list. It be easy to find out if you just take the lower one out compare it to the upper one do the settings with the hole jewel look the same? If so problem solved

Just in case you want to buy another movement and are curious as to which one would have the same jewel you can find out the link below. But you really just want the jewel and they give you this number 511.12/INCA #34. The number breaks down into really two parts the first part which is what you're looking for 511.12 Is the hole jewel and setting. The other part of the number INCA #34 Is telling you that if you had a parts assortment from them in you looked in container number 34 that's we could be looking for. Which looking at my container matches the picture and it looks like a hole jewel in setting.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=X\ZD\D

Then to expand your knowledge there's another website but it's not being helpful. They're not listing the older calibers. But the second link is a pretty picture which also brings up more problems? Because that's not a complete list of everything they make that's only the spare parts.

http://www.incabloc.ch/en/pieces_rechanges.php

http://www.incabloc.ch/images/cat/tableau-synoptique.gif

Because I was curious as to whether there really is only one hole jewel for this watch or not I went to the bestfit on Online and it's not being helpful at all. It's not indicating that it uses a hole jewel at all it's not listed. But best fit does offer another solution if you would download the physical books as a PDF. Anyone doing watches should have the PDF and I'm sure somebody will give you the link.

Then everybody's probably heard of cousins interesting website. All kinds of free documentation

https://www.cousinsuk.com/

I snipped out some images out of the bestfit book. One of things that gives us is what the entire setting number would be. So for instance if you needed a spring for the upper setting and the hole jewel may be be best just to get the entire assembly if you can find it but it should be relatively common. So the bestfit book gives us those numbers and cousins gives us a PDF which I attached. I hope you're good at reading French?  Yes they do have an English translation but you have to find the front of the book and will be the challenge if I gave you everything.

 

 

1310_Incabloc By Factory - Unitas, Universal-1.pdf

[TimpanogosSlim]

Thanks for that. I have had a hard time figuring out how to drive the jules borel cgi, but it looks like they have the hole jewel, barrel arbor, ratchet wheel screw, and the shock spring. 

So the decision to be made is whether it's worth it to me. Even if just for the learning experience. 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

the decision to be made is whether it's worth it to me. Even if just for the learning experience. 

Welcome to the club, pal.