L&R Cleaning Machines

[LittleWatchShop]

On 11/28/2021 at 7:31 AM, Plato said:

Is this the motor?

If so, it'll draw 0.5A from a max voltage of 120V.

60ohms isn't enough to alter the speed too much. 800ohm would work but a min of 240ohm would do the job... ensure that the rheostat can handle a minimum of 0.5A.

Not to open old wounds...but I have refurbished one of these machines I got recently.  I wanted to address the rheostat again.  Confident that the resistance needed to be somewhere in the 500 to 800 ohms, I wanted to resolve the power dissipation issue.  Sooo, I measured the current that the motor drew.  I did not have a 120 volt dc power supply, so I bought a variac and drove a full-wave bridge to get the dc I needed.  Anyway, I measured around 110 mA.  So that resolved the power issue at maximum resistance.

[TylerC]

I pulled an old vari-matic from storage this week and got it up and running. Everything seems to work right except that the basket doesn't lower itself into the jars until the very end of that cycle, then it moves to the next jar and does the same thing. I'm not sure exactly what to do to fix this or if it can be fixed. Any help would be appreciated, thanks! 

[AndyHull]

Sorry for the late reply. This might help

 

http://electronicinstrumentservice.com/manuals/L&R/Repairing L&R Hydraulic System.pdf

 

[jackb]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:07 PM, ED209 said:

think the label for the control panel turned out ok.  I put a piece of mylar over the print to help protect it as I printed the sticker clear labels from my laser printer.  I originally was going to go to Office Depot, but the last time, their prints also had dots here and there where the toner missed.  Compared to how it was, I think it's an improvement and I wasn't going for museum quality as I plan on using this.

I know this may be a long shot, but would you be able to share the file for the label you printed? I am currently restoring the same model and struggling since the lettering is not raised. Thanks!

[bobolink]

I acquired an L&R Master off eBay months back.  It was  dated 1954. It looked tired and after receiving it ran really poorly.   So, I embarked on a rebuilding project.   I am writing this  because I found some sources for parts and services that may be useful to others, and it had taken me a long time (I’m talking many months) to find them all and get the work done.

Link to pictures of before and after are attached at the end.

Thanks to all on the forums and other sites for info, diagrams, and pics that helped me along the way. I cant recall where I got everything so a general thanks!

The process was as follows (to help those taking this on):

·        Took the whole thing apart and stripped the paint down to the bare aluminum.  I ground off some bad casting bumps while it was stripped.

·        I tried to crinkle paint it myself with VHT Wrinkle Paint but just couldn’t get it right, so I stripped it again and decided to send it out to have the body (including the motor housing) powder coated.  So, the motor had to be completely disassembled before sending for powder coating.

·        All parts I was reusing were cleaned and polished where needed.  So, you really need to have abrasives and both a workshop polishing wheel and Dremel.

·        The rheostat was not smooth and would cause the motor to jump speeds. But turned out it was just dirty with hard carbon build up so a good cleaning and some gentle scraping of the contacts and it was fine with smooth resistance all the way through the range.  I also hit it with some very fine sandpaper (1200+ grit) lightly then cleaned with acetone.

·        Trying to get the rheostat knob off it crumbled into small pieces, but I found a good one on eBay.  The knob as well as the motor brush housings are made of Bakelite on these old machines, and it doesn’t polish well nor necessarily hold up after about 70 years.

·        The heating resistor was good.  Resistance was tested and was as marked. So cleaned it up.

·        The light bulb socket was good so just cleaning needed.  Bad bulb but I found bulbs to fit on the internet and bought a box of #41 2.5V E10 base.

·        Then there was the motor.  OMG. It ran but rattled, buzzed, and didn’t always turn.   Bearings, wiring (I am lucky I didn’t fry myself when I turned it on after receiving it), and some burnt out armature winding wires on the rotor itself would cause it to not always start.  Also cracked wire going into the stators.  Finally, I decided to try to have it rebuilt.  Very hard to find a company that rebuilds these Fractional Horsepower Motors.  After searching for what seemed months, I found a company in California that would rebuild the armature and stator. 

·        The brushes themselves were good and easy to replace if necessary.   But one of the brush holders was cracked.  I found a company that made brush holders that almost fit (larger by just about 1/32” with some slight enlarging of the motor housing brush holder hole.  Drilled it out to 1/2” they fit perfectly.

·        I added a fuse and an IEC plug to the back.  There is very little room on the back so finding an IEC outlet that fit was an effort.   When getting new switches, I decided to get an On-Off-On switch for the motor Forward-Reverse.  It’s normally an On-On switch.  I didn’t want to rely on the rheostat to stop the motor.  So I can leave it on a setting and switch the motor off.  I also use a switched power line.  I just never liked the fact you cant fully turn off all power to the entire unit given there are liquids and electricity in close vicinity of each other.

·        Grounded the whole unit of course.

·        The jars are original but had no covers so purchased on eBay both screw on and lay on replacements from someone that makes them via 3D printing.  They are not as nice as the originals but work well and are lower cost and new.

·        The impeller had a crack, but I was able to repair it by brazing the crack and filing it smooth. You can easily braze aluminum carefully using an aluminum brazing rod and propane torch.

·        I did all the wiring and soldering myself.  Those courses in collage in electronics helped Fitting the wires into the motor housing is a real challenge if you don’t have an original pic of the inside.  Someone had already been inside the motor and the wiring was a real mess. Thanks to others on this and other web sites where I found wiring diagrams and wiring photos of the underside of the unit.

·        I used rubber coated wire between the motor top and the main tube because it just seemed softer and more flexible compared to some vinyl or PVC coated wires and that moves when moving the motor to the jars.

The one thing I didn’t do is try to renew the motor and control panel labels. I have seen some others that look like they were able to do it but for me with the lettering and all it is just too detailed to paint by hand, so I just cleaned them and gave them a clear coat to protect them.  Note that I did find a company www.dyna-graphics.com that could create duplicate overlays with all the L&R lettering, etc. (industrial decals) that could be applied to the control panel. Normally used for electronic control panels.  But they had a minimum purchase, and I didn’t want to spend the money.

Bottomline it was a long process and the motor rebuild was expensive.  But with all spent its about what you might pay for one online that has been rebuilt like new and normally you don’t get a like new motor.

Here is a list of companies that I used for parts and repair:

·        Gundy Powder Coating - Bayshore New York

·        Eurton Electric - Whittier, California.  They rebuilt the rotor, armature, and stator (I put it back together myself and pushed on new bearings and fit the brush holders).

·        Motor Bearings - MiMotion https://www.motion.com/ Brand:  MRC (SKF) Size MFR#: R6ZZ.  The existing bearings were marked making it easier to replace.

·        Brush Holders - Phoenix Electric Manufacturing Co. (the bad part is they have a minimum order size.  They come as a set, and you must buy 10 sets minimum.  Each set includes the following parts: Part #1520-BC-660-895 (the holder), Part #AE-51-TP (the screw cap).

·        Switches – Gaynor Toggle Switches got them on eBay.  Any good toggles should work ok.

·        Heater Light Bulbs - #41 2.5V Miniature Light Bulbs with E10 Base (purchased from Bulbtown.com but available multiple places).

·        Jar Covers – eBay sellers, 3D Printed.

Link to Photos:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArzY7G4e4SiEhe5TWmrNvCMc7vV9AA?e=TsAh9E

Thanks

bob

[GWT]

Here are my restored photos with crinkle paint!

[LittleWatchShop]

You did a very nice job!  What paint did you use?

[GWT]

I used VHT wrinkle paint! Read on using there are ways to make it wrinkle more or wrinkle less!  I used heat gun and thinner and thicker coats to get these results….I didn’t want to break apart the motor but I’m going to to install new bearings and brush’s. The Ident tag was missing when I bought it it was mess but all wiring and switch’s that needed changed, thinking to convert to DC brushless motor and timed forward and reverse like the newer machines won’t cost a lot and I think make it more reliable?? Only drawback it will need two plugs instead of one but small price for ultimate reliability and F/R function to be auto during cleaning cycle!

If anyone found the proper Brush’s for original motor please let me know?

 

 

On 6/5/2023 at 11:03 PM, LittleWatchShop said:

You did a very nice job!  What paint did you use?

Above is post of process and paint used 

Edited June 7, 2023 by GWT

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, GWT said:

If anyone found the proper Brush’s for original motor please let me know?

I have found the square brushes.  Some motors use round brushes, so for those, I chuck the square ones in a lathe and turn them round.  Which do you have?

If you want to convert to DC brushless but worried about two plugs, I think the solution is to integrate a power supply that bucks down to the motor voltage while still having the 110V available for the heater.  Frankly, having a periodic reversing may not add additional cleaning ability that one can quantify.  So, I dont worry about it.  My jars have the turbulence inserts which, I guess, helps.  But, you probably get joy out of modding, so I say...go for it!!

[AndrewSi]

Hello folks- I recently acquired an L&R Master and the wiring is definitely in need of replacement- lots of old crumbly fabric insulation and the cord is still of the ungrounded variety.  Otherwise it seems to be fully functional- motor brushes in decent shape, switches,  rheostat, and heater all working.

The one thing I wasn’t quite able to figure out was how to open up the motor casing so that I can replace the power feed through the post, although that’s of lower immediate priority than the stuff in the base, which is a mess.  I was able to remove the six screws on the underside of the motor, but at that point the bottom half of the motor case appears to be able to spin freely around the rotor and I’m not quite sure what needs to happen in order to separate the two halves of the case to access the internals.  I’m sure it’s something simple- what did I miss?

[joelcarvajal]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:04 AM, ED209 said:

I sure did, apologies for not posting sooner, weekends are crazy trying to entertain the 2 year old LOL. 

 

I just tested the fit and it shouldn’t need much filling as it was snug and did slip on some. 
 

Please PM me your PayPal email so I can send you some $ for this part and all the work effort you put into this. 
 

Progress so far is slow as I am really letting the paint and lacquer cure as I can still make small marks with my fingernails. 
 

I did rewire the motor but holding off on the other wiring until I can start mounting the other components. I will need to source a new rubber grommet\eyelit that goes on the top of the motor housing as well as one of those strain reliefs for the main power cord. 
 

I also have to redo the panel that holds the switches as the darn lacquer messed up the paint, so for now I’m done with lacquer unless I’m putting it on wood. 
 

In other good news, I was able to source a new original basket, see pics below. 
 

I’ll continue to update thread with progress. 
 

Hipe everyone has a wonderful and safe weekend. 
 

 

Hi!  I am eyeing an L&R master but it doesn't come with the propeller attachment and basket.  Where can I get my hands to one of this?

[HectorLooi]

You can keep an eye out on eBay. They do come up for sale once in awhile.

I'm not sure if the Indian made cleaning machine basket will fit. The unit attaches to an 8.0mm shaft. The build quality is acceptable. Might need a bit of filing off the rough edges.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385042344168?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ggjmobmftxo&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=v36TsHWBSw-&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[RichardHarris123]

A related question, is there any difference between the  cheap and expensive baskets? I'm thinking about the individual baskets 

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

cheap and expensive baskets?

You mean the difference between the India version versus the version found at the link below? The wire in the Elmo version appears to be stainless steel and I assume all the other shiny metal parts are stainless steel. Unfortunately you can't tell from pictures whether the India version is made out of stainless steel or whether they have some brass anywhere?

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/064mm-baskets-fittings

 

 

 

[MichaelK]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:25 AM, rodabod said:

Be careful with aluminium and ammoniated fluids - I had an issue once when cleaning clock parts in an aluminium tray and it left deposits on some of the parts. Almost like electrolysis. 

Does anyone know what the original baffles are made of?  I am missing one and was just going to use a strip of aluminum.  Would stainless steel be a better option?  Thanks.

[MichaelK]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:32 PM, jackb said:

I know this may be a long shot, but would you be able to share the file for the label you printed? I am currently restoring the same model and struggling since the lettering is not raised. Thanks!

I'm very interested in this as well.  My panel is in very bad shape.  You can barely read the lettering.  Thanks to anyone that can share a ready to print copy.

[mhilton]

Hello All,

It seems to be a common topic of getting a new machine but not having the basket. I am in the same boat. I have bought both a 2.25" and 2.5" basket and neither seem to fit. It is an L&R Master that appears to have been refurbed at some point. If anyone could point me in the right direction to get a basket that fits it would be a huge help. I will say that the attachment point seems different that other models I have looked at online.

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, mhilton said:

Hello All,

It seems to be a common topic of getting a new machine but not having the basket. I am in the same boat. I have bought both a 2.25" and 2.5" basket and neither seem to fit. It is an L&R Master that appears to have been refurbed at some point. If anyone could point me in the right direction to get a basket that fits it would be a huge help. I will say that the attachment point seems different that other models I have looked at online.

I have never seen that spinner configuration.  Perhaps that is the problem.

[JohnR725]

possibly what they've done is converted to using Elma type baskets.

 

[Malocchio]

What's the diameter of that shaft? Elma basket takes an 8mm shaft.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

What's the diameter of that shaft? Elma basket takes an 8mm shaft.

These Indian baskets take an 8mm shaft as well. The manufacturing accuracy isnt great but they are around a third of the price. Both Hector and myself had to do some filing of the basket to improve the runout. 

[mhilton]

18 hours ago, Malocchio said:

What's the diameter of that shaft? Elma basket takes an 8mm shaft.

It looks like the shaft is 9.5mm as measured from just above the attachment point.

 

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

possibly what they've done is converted to using Elma type baskets.

 

It looks like the outside diameter of the attachment ring is 6.35cm. Would you know if that's correct for these? I am trying to google and find out but coming up empty. Thanks!

[mhilton]

Ok so it looks like this is the spinner from the Elma super elite cleaner. Anybody know what baskets I can use for those?