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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have used JB for a lot of things and most of the time it has worked.  It is worth a try.  I am printing something right now.  Have decided that it will take a lot of time to draw the blades, so I may propose attaching wings to the spokes with...perhaps JB Weld!  Will report back soon.

 

Awesome, excited to see what you came up with and fingers crossed it works.

 

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Not welded, that's the really hot and deep way to join metals and would melt it away. But they can be soldered, or brazed. I would try asking a radiator shop and prefer that to gluing. 

 

Yeah, I'm not sure what type of material this is, it seems hard but yet when it broke off, it seemed very brittle.  I am decent at soldering but not sure my iron could get hot enough, but may experiment.

 

I went ahead and used some JB Weld on 2 of the fans as it's awkward placement due to the angles of the blades so unless I sit there and hold it, I had to do one at a time, then wait until the JB Weld is more of a putty that has some structure to hold the fan piece in place.  I'm thinking if I can just get the blades to stay in place well enough after the JB Weld sets, then I'm thinking I could just put JB Weld all over and that would possibly strengthen it.  Not talking about caking it on but sort of a thin layer, that way the whole frame is stronger?  No clue but I learned a long time ago, if something is F'd up, you can't F it up anymore.

 

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Would like the paint stirrer attachment to work but then the trick would be to how to attach it to the steel rod as most of them come with their own smaller diameter rod.

 

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice.

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32 minutes ago, ED209 said:

Would like the paint stirrer attachment to work but then the trick would be to how to attach it to the steel rod as most of them come with their own smaller diameter rod.

Bushes and set screws. Ideally done on a lathe but even without you can make acceptable ones from brass or aluminum stock or whatever you can get, solid or pipe, as long the outer diameter is right, then drilling bore to size with a matching bit. Then drill and tap for set screws. It won't be precise but for slow spinning doesn't matter.

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41 minutes ago, jdm said:

Bushes and set screws. Ideally done on a lathe but even without you can make acceptable ones from brass or aluminum stock or whatever you can get, solid or pipe, as long the outer diameter is right, then drilling bore to size with a matching bit. Then drill and tap for set screws. It won't be precise but for slow spinning doesn't matter.

 

Thanks jdm, I haven't made things like this before but if I'm getting into watchmaking, that seems one of the many eventual paths.  BTW, love your YouTube videos.

 

25 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Hard to break broke.

I will have something printed to demonstrate the concept in less than an hour.

 

Exactly my point and can't wait.

 

4 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I need these dimensions from you...in case they are different from mine.

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Thickness of rod = 9.60mm.  It went a little back and forth between 9.58 - 9.62 but the consistent reading was 9.60mm using my digital calipers.  I also went up and down to see if it tapered and it didn't.

 

Distance from top of the fan to the bottom where the blades met ranged from 21.52 up to 21.65, probably due to the way it broke off and used the depth gauge on the same caplipers.

 

Let me know if you need anything additional

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A question for the group following this.  Are the blades necessary??  I have wondered about this with my own machine.  The jars have the inserts to cause turbulence already.  Would the end result be just as good without propellers?  I realize this is very subjective without constructing an experiment and testing.

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14 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

A question for the group following this.  Are the blades necessary??  I have wondered about this with my own machine.  The jars have the inserts to cause turbulence already.  Would the end result be just as good without propellers?  I realize this is very subjective without constructing an experiment and testing.

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There's actually another propeller piece that screws into the bottom of the rod on mine, perhaps that's enough?

 

I have two of the stars and all 3 of the side baffle or whatever it's called.

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36 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

What is the diameter of that screw?

Here is what I have so far.  I think that I extend the upper post, put a hole in it to accept the motor shaft and if the blades are not necessary, we are done.  At least for phase 1.  I am pondering ways to add the props.

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6.28mm...sorry for delay, have the parts in the tumbler...

 

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26 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Added extended post and a hole to install a threaded insert.  Apart from the propeller, this is nearly complete.

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Awesome, the outer posts that the basket sets on should be the same size on yours but if you need those, just let me know.

 

I can't thank you enough for all the help as well as everyone else's help, tips and advice.

 

Such an AMAZING community and look forward to being able to help others.

 

 

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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

OK, this is what I am going to send you.  Including two SS hex screws as well.

It will be a very tight fit on your shaft.  You may have to do a little filing with a round file.  DO NOT USE A DRILL.

You need to PM your address

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Amazing!!!!!  I have a file set with some tubular thin files if needed.  Would you recommend using any lubrication or just keep filing until snug?

 

So you are saying to just get some thin, say sheet metal or tin pieces and just glue them to each blade with a flat shape on the sides and have them stick out a little on the bottom to form a type of propeller?  

 

I’ll first try things out without it and compare it to how other machines work.  PM incoming.

 

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am going to work on adding props, but later.  As I said before, you can add some props by gluing a thin piece of metal on each spoke.  That is a very simple interim solution.

 

I can’t thank you enough and looking forward to what you come up with later with props.  

 

I wonder how hard it would be waaaaay down the road when you have the prop one, to do a mold and then get it casted?  Have NO clue how much that would cost, etc. but just thinking of the possibilities, granted it won’t be a lot of demand but neat to think about.

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48 minutes ago, ED209 said:

Amazing!!!!!  I have a file set with some tubular thin files if needed.  Would you recommend using any lubrication or just keep filing until snug?

Not sure a little grease would help...maybe.  What I find with my prints is that holes are always a little smaller than I draw. Since you can't contract "too big" I always make holes a little smaller than they need to be.  Then I use a round file and tweak it in.  So, take a round file and do a half dozen strokes while rotating and then check the fit.  Repeat.

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52 minutes ago, ED209 said:

So you are saying to just get some thin, say sheet metal or tin pieces and just glue them to each blade with a flat shape on the sides and have them stick out a little on the bottom to form a type of propeller?

Yes, something a little thicker than an aluminum can might work.  Like I have shown here.

 

53 minutes ago, ED209 said:

I wonder how hard it would be waaaaay down the road when you have the prop one, to do a mold and then get it casted?

There are services that will do this. Anything can be done given enough $$$$$$

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Thank you again LittleWatchShop for all your help and how fast you did it and I will definitely report back and can't wait to see what you come up with if\when you decide to add propeller blades.  I think for now I'll see how it works without adding the metal strips.

 

So if it's ok with everyone, I can document my light restoration just in case it might help someone down the road as I want to help pay it back even being so new to this hobby\obsession.

 

So I had planned to go all out and get this powder coated, but for now I think I will follow the same footsteps as a previous poster on this thread and just rattle can it myself as I'm not too bad when it comes to spray painting smaller objects vs. larger flat surface objects (tiger striping, running paint, etc.).  So my plan is as follows:

 

Strip what's left of the paint on the outside with citrus strip.  I'm not going to mess with the underside or the inside of the motor housing in terms of painting but did clean it with a mild cleaner.  I then will prime it with filler primer (they didn't have any self-etching stuff).  Then I'm going to put a a few coats of the Hammer Gray spray paint (Rustoleum).  Once it dries completely, then I'm going to use another spray can to put a couple of coats of lacquer on it, again Rustoleum.  It was between the clear lacquer or automotive enamel and just flipped a coin basically as there are pros and cons for both.

 

I didn't mention it before but hope it's implied, if there's anything I list as a part of my restore that is a big No No or wouldn't be a good idea, please let me know as you definitely won't hurt my feelings as I'm still a complete amateur when it comes to restoring older mechanical devices.

 

I tested all of the components (switches, Rheostat, ceramic resistor and the heating resistor) and the only components that were finicky were the Rheostat and the switches.  The Rheostat readings were not consistent or smooth as you turned the dial, even after cleaning and sanding the coils.  The switches also would sometimes work and sometimes not, so replacing these items.  Just for sake of completeness, the heater resistor was only 5 ohms off the printed rating and the ceramic resistor too was just about 4 ohms off its printed rating.

 

Regarding the bearings...I had planned to replace them since it's already disassembled and got the tools to remove them and had to get 2 separate tools since one of the bearings was still in the top of the motor housing.  Before attempting to do anything, I went to my Dad as he is a retired mechanical engineer to see if he had any trick or tools to remove that motor housing bearing and like others that already said it, the first thing he said was "Why are you replacing them?  This motor hardly puts any load on these bearings and they are sealed and should last longer than the motor will."  He played around with them, spinning and listening and said there's just no reason to buy extra tools to remove that one from the housing nor the one from the rod.  So being new to working with bearings as most of my past work has been with electronics and other mechanical electrical parts, I just figured it would be preventative maintenance to replace them, but I can't ignore the obvious, so I will not be replacing the bearings.  I also was just going from another documented restore in another forum and theirs had the bearing stay on the end of the rod, so the thought was perhaps mine should be replaced since it was still stuck in the upper motor housing, but thinking about it, that might be a good thing meaning when it comes time to reinstall the rod, it will go into the right position?  So apologies to those who already said this and hope I didn't give the impression I was ignoring and not accepting of the advice.

 

Of course the wiring was basically all crumbling apart, so will completely rewire and either add crimp connectors or just solder them directly.  I've done quite a bit of solder work, so not concerned there.  I do wish I could replace the wire connected to the motor but it looks like it goes inside the motor so I will clip as close as I can and then just either wrap with electrical tape or use heat shrink tubing to cover the exposed older wire.

 

So now with the amazing 3D part that is being sent, that should cover everything.  I will also be replacing the rubber grommet for the wire that goes into the motor housing and will also shine the steel rods, but they are in pretty good shape, so just going to use a little Flitz.  I am using a 14 gauge electrical power cord for the main power cord and for the wiring to the motor, I got 16 gauge power cord that I'll cut to size.

 

The only thing I need a little help with is that tape that was between the heater resistor and the bracket assembly.  I posted a pic below and not sure what a suitable replacement is.  The 2 options I came across when searching for Heat Resistant Insulating Electrical tape are below, so not sure if either will work and be acceptable and which one is the better options and appreciate the feedback.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tesas-Advanced-Harness-51036-Mercedes/dp/B01I2MLN2Q/ref=asc_df_B01I2MLN2Q/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198096571354&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14219122187413394964&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011692&hvtargid=pla-406190500764&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HB81Q4L/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3ASOL2BV6TI90&th=1

 

I think that covers my plans and I'll update as I make progress if there's interest, but if that's not what should be posted in this thread, no problem.

 

Thanks again everyone for all the help, tips, feedback and advice, I truly appreciate it.

 

Stay safe everyone.

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Edited by ED209
Forgot to add links to the tape...
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The tape on the wire wound resister almost looks like mica. The tape on the L&R here looks exactly the same. Is there a reason you are replacing it?

They use kapton tape in 3d printers (printhead) for up to 400F. Here is an amazon link for way too much of it: https://www.amazon.com/Mil-Kapton-Tape-Polyimide-yds/dp/B006ZFNB2I

I did a little testing and the Flir is showing 171 C about 340 F on the resistor here.

FLIR0013.jpg.5ef90446925a6755fad7bd2275c80287.jpg

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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Hey @ED209the part I printed is on its way to you.  Should get it by Friday. Cross our fingers!


Awesome and thanks SO much for the help  

 

1 hour ago, Nibbler said:

The tape on the wire wound resister almost looks like mica. The tape on the L&R here looks exactly the same. Is there a reason you are replacing it?

They use kapton tape in 3d printers (printhead) for up to 400F. Here is an amazon link for way too much of it: https://www.amazon.com/Mil-Kapton-Tape-Polyimide-yds/dp/B006ZFNB2I

I did a little testing and the Flir is showing 171 C about 340 F on the resistor here.

FLIR0013.jpg.5ef90446925a6755fad7bd2275c80287.jpg


Thanks for the help and the one you linked is similar to the one I posted, so going to go with that as it resists higher temperatures than the other one. Also in the top motor housing there was what looked like masking tape, assuming to prevent the wires from accidentally shorting out to the top cap frame, so going to use this as well to replace as the masking tape was really worn.  Reason I’m replacing the other tape on the heating resistor is because it fell apart. 
 

Another few questions for everyone… 

 

I just read on my Lacquer spray can that it says do not apply to surface that gets hotter than 200 degrees Fahrenheit, does anyone know if the outside of the heating chamber get that hot or should I not apply lacquer to that area?  I know the thermal pic above shows the temperature of the actual resistor, but didn’t know if the outside of the chamber gets that hot?  I wasn’t planning on painting underneath at all, just the outside of the main unit and the motor housing. 
 

Would it cause any issues by not painting or priming underneath?  Just didn’t know if the bare metal would be prone to rust or if I should just put a light coat of oil?

 

Progress so far….I stripped all the paint off and washed everything after, so I’m ready to prime, paint and lacquer.  Can’t start until tomorrow. 
 

This is my first time using lacquer, do I apply immediately after the last coat of paint dries to the touch (30 minutes) or do I need to wait until fully dry?  The can doesn’t have anything specific to applying after painting and only thing I could find online had that you can apply after applying final coat of paint and it’s better as when the paint is curing, it will bond with the lacquer and not have issues curing or cracking. 

I painted the manufactured tag and the main plate where the switches go and hoping I can just sand the lettering, but they are not raised much, so not sure how to bring back the paint for these two things, if anyone has any suggestions, I’m all ears  

Thanks again for all the help and stay safe. 
 

 

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Update so far....

 

Primed, 3 coats of Hammered paint (actually 4 coats as the first coat was Gray Hammered and thought the gray had a darker tint but it didn’t so went with Hammered Black, 3 coats).  Then I added 3 coats of lacquer and everything was looking good, no drips or runs.  But then after an hour I noticed a ring around of a run and here I thought I was getting better, but after thinking about it more and also seeing inside where you put the jars, I think the lacquer did end up reacting and causing the run, so lesson learned.  

 

So I have two options regarding the paint, strip and do over or be glad it is better than it was before, see pics below.  I am going with the 2nd option, not because I”m lazy but because I plan to use this as my goal is to just do preventative maintenance (update switches and wiring) as well as make the appearance better than it was when I got it and I feel, even with the runs, I did that.

 

This lead me to the next step, the panel (where the switches and dial are) and the manufacturer’s tag (metal tab on motor top housing).  At first I tried one of those oil paint pens and while I was able to scrape off the lettering, the rest looked terrible.  So I went with a Semi-Gloss black, just 2 coats, and then had to find a way to expose the lettering.  I really wanted to use sandpaper but the lettering is hardly raised at all and when I tried it with the oil paint, it didn’t work.  I then tried a toothpick and just went around and scraped slowly and BINGO, it worked great.  Does it look like factory, of course not, especially for the smaller lettering at the bottom as the lettering is so close, but it does look better than what it originally looked like, pics below.  However the manufacturer’s tag has such small writing, the toothpick really didn’t work as well, so I tried sandpaper at first (2000 grit) and while it started to work, I guess due to the letters being so tiny and not raised much, it took some of the background off.  I then took the route of using a Scotch Brite pad, and this worked A LOT better.  I think I will redo the paint job on this and put a couple more coats and then do the Scotch Brite pad again.

 

If anyone has any tips on how to make the main rod that holds the motor a little shinier or what to use to clean the spots off of it, looks like water spots, please let me know as I’ve tried steel wool as well as metal polish, but that didn’t work.  I don’t have a buffing wheel, only a Dremel sized one, and thinking that is the really only way to shine it up.  I mean it’s not bad from a distance.

 

Well that’s the update so far, next goal for hopefully tomorrow is the wiring as I got my Rheostat and switched in today and didn’t need to replace the ceramic resistor nor the heating resistor.

 

I’m going to let the unit dry for at least 48 hours (can says 24 for fully dry) due to paint and lacquer but just after 2 hours, it’s was dry to the touch.

 

Hope everyone this helps someone in the future and hope everyone has a great night, stay safe.

 

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Edited by ED209
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1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

did the spinner arrive?


I sure did, apologies for not posting sooner, weekends are crazy trying to entertain the 2 year old LOL

 

I just tested the fit and it shouldn’t need much filling as it was snug and did slip on some. 
 

Please PM me your PayPal email so I can send you some $ for this part and all the work effort you put into this. 
 

Progress so far is slow as I am really letting the paint and lacquer cure as I can still make small marks with my fingernails. 
 

I did rewire the motor but holding off on the other wiring until I can start mounting the other components. I will need to source a new rubber grommet\eyelit that goes on the top of the motor housing as well as one of those strain reliefs for the main power cord. 
 

I also have to redo the panel that holds the switches as the darn lacquer messed up the paint, so for now I’m done with lacquer unless I’m putting it on wood. 
 

In other good news, I was able to source a new original basket, see pics below. 
 

I’ll continue to update thread with progress. 
 

Hipe everyone has a wonderful and safe weekend. 
 

 

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Greetings everyone, hope all is well.

 

I figured I would give an update on progress.

 

Regarding the control panel plate...UGH, nothing seemed to work in terms of just being able to show the lettering after painting, I tried all different grits of sandpaper, scotch Brite, etc.  So I am doing what I did when I restored my PAC Man cabaret machine...the machine was missing it’s manufacturer’s tag and I came across a thread where someone used a metal business card and then printed the label on a clear label sticker paper (Neato brand) and then just put it on the metal card and the lettering was clear.  Anyway, that’s what I’m going to do for the control panel, so I’ve sanded it all down to bare metal and will stick on the label and maybe add just a clear coat, but NOT LACQUER LOL.

 

Today I made a lot of progress and put everything back together.  Putting the motor back together was challenging as there is hardly any space but you have to make sure no wires are in the way when the rod spins.  In addition to that, the plastic cylinder housings that hold the brushes are so old and brittle that one of them wouldn’t install snug enough...I’ll get to that later.  I then got everything connected and used quick disconnects as I usually use Molex but since a lot of these were just single points of connection as well as the space is limited, I just went with spade connectors.  I ended up using the old eyelet rubber grommet on the motor housing as I couldn’t find a replacement grommet, the existing one wasn’t too bad but it’ll work.  I also need to get a strain relief plastic connector for the power cord but for now just using a rubber grommet and a zip tie to ensure strain relief and protection from the hole opening.  I also used a zip tie for the cord on the outside of the motor housing as I noticed since it is a new power cord, it is very stiff and while I was making adjustments and moving it around, the rod wouldn’t spin as freely and I could feel the vibrations in the cord, telling me that it was rubbing one of the wires and it was because the cord pushed in slightly.  I just took a zip tie and pulled the wire out (I did install the metal cable clamp or strain relief on the inside) so now the cable does not move in or out of the motor housing.

 

The moment of truth came, I plugged it in and success, it was running and A LOT smoother and quieter than before, however as I turned up the speed, it all of a sudden quit.  I was stumped as I triple checked my wiring and checked all around and noticed that one plastic cylinder brush housing had creeped out a little, so I pushed it back in and it worked again but then did the same thing.  It turns out, with the help of my Dad, that the vibrations (albeit a lot less than before) is causing the plastic brush housing cylinder to ever so slightly move and the one brush no longer makes contact.  I confirmed this by manually pushed the brush with an insulated screwdriver and it worked fine.  I then thought I could just replace but had no idea if these are common sizes and available and then I’d have to disassemble everything, etc.  So my solution for now is to just JB Weld all around the front of this brush housing on the outside of the plastic.  I did test after applying the JB Weld and it worked fine, so will give it a minimum of 2 days to cure.  I would have done the other one as a preventative maintenance, but from what I can tell, these are friction fit once you insert the brush guides, they are very snug and the other housing doesn’t move, so until it breaks, I won’t fix it.

 

The other thing I’ll have to replace is the switch that controls the direction of the motor...dumb me is still learning about all the different kind of switches in terms of Single Pole, Single Throw, Double Throw, etc. so I mistakenly used the same single pull single throw switches for both and you know the rest, the motor isn’t able to alternate the current if the switch isn’t right, so I should have that by Friday.  I’m just grateful to the mechanical gods that I didn’t blow up or mess anything up.

 

I did have to cut the end wire on the new Rheostat so that when the dial is turned all the way down, it is off as the original Rheostat was shorter in terms of rotation meaning that when you went all the way to the left\Off position, no connection was made, however the new or new old stock Rheostat I used, doesn’t allow the dial to not make a connection, so to remedy, I just snipped the last connector that was connected to the wiring terminal that isn’t used anyway.  I took this idea from the other restorer thread I came across.

 

So that’s all I’ve done so far, I would post pics but I need to do the control panel label\sticker as well as clean up the wiring.  I just put it together quickly to test that I didn’t mess up anything, other than not using my brain and using the correct switch, but it was a good learning experience and I’m just ecstatic that the motor runs and is a lot smoother and quieter.

 

QUESTION for anyone that can help.   My L&R Master machine has a ceramic (looks like concrete, see attached pic) 48 ohm resistor that is connected between the Heater Resistor and the light socket (fuse) and of course the switch.  Out of the many photos I’ve seen of these Master machines, none of them have this or any resistor there.  Does anyone know the purpose of this resistor?  I know it limits the voltage, but is this for a reason?  Would the heater resistor get too hot or is it a safety measure?  Was it overkill as this specific machine was built in 1949, and did they just omit this resistor as it was not needed?  The resistor is fine but it is quite cumbersome and just was curious if I can remove it entirely?

 

Thanks as always for the help, advice and tips and hope everyone stays safe out there.

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Edited by ED209
Corrected misspellings
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