Bulova Accutron 2180 2181

[Plato]

2 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Well it is very nice...jealous.  I may have to build one but I would rather not!

It's mostly plastic, clamps and springs on a metal base... I'll take some more photos and measurements tomorrow if you want?

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Plato said:

Portescap who I think are/were connected to Incabloc

To give you a better idea of the company I have a link. Look what they were into in the 30s watch stuff and then what did they make in 1933 in? 

https://www.portescap.com/en/about-portescap/about-us

 

 

 

[Plato]

2 hours ago, markr said:

I bought a Accutron 600 tester.  Now I need to learn how to use it.

I think the most important tool will be a microscope although having the proper factory tools are definitely a bonus... provided they work!! 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Plato
Missed a word out

[LittleWatchShop]

15 minutes ago, Plato said:

It's mostly plastic, clamps and springs on a metal base... I'll take some more photos and measurements tomorrow if you want?

Sure. I can 3D print all of the plastic pieces.  I bought some pogo pins awhile back thinking I would build the probes. 

Every time I test a quartz movement (out of the case), it is a fiddly process...need to do better.

[Plato]

15 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

To give you a better idea of the company I have a link. Look what they were into in the 30s watch stuff and then what did they make in 1933 in? 

https://www.portescap.com/en/about-portescap/about-us

 

 

 

They created Incabloc, awesome! 

[Plato]

9 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Sure. I can 3D print all of the plastic pieces.  I bought some pogo pins awhile back thinking I would build the probes. 

Every time I test a quartz movement (out of the case), it is a fiddly process...need to do better.

I'll take some decent photos of it tomorrow, it's not perfect but quite versatile... the clamp is the same as the one on the Vibrograf M80. 

[Plato]

Here are the photos, a day late due to an emergency at home:

[markr]

The 218 I have is running inside the holder but when removed from the holder is stops running.  I put movement into a genetic metal movement holder and it ran.  Removed from holder and stopped.  What's going on?

[HectorLooi]

You might have accidentally touched the fork and stopped it. Try tapping the movement lightly at the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position to start it again.

[markr]

I tried.  That's not it.  I pick it up by the crown and it stops put it back in the movement holder and it starts again.

[Plato]

23 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

You might have accidentally touched the fork and stopped it. Try tapping the movement lightly at the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position to start it again.

@HectorLooi I believe that the tuning fork movements cannot start as well with modern silver oxide batteries. I think it's something to do with the higher internal resistance compared to the old mercury batteries. I have two tuning fork watches and they do need an extra 'knock' to start running... please correct me if I'm wrong. 

[markr]

And I'm making sure the stem is staying in.

[Plato]

3 minutes ago, markr said:

I tried.  That's not it.  I pick it up by the crown and it stops put it back in the movement holder and it starts again.

Can you post a picture of your set-up. It might be the crown activated on-off switch. 

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Plato said:

I believe that the tuning fork movements cannot start as well with modern silver oxide batteries. I think it's something to do with the higher internal resistance compared to the old mercury batteries.

I somehow doubt that that's the problem as I've never heard of that before. We really need a picture.

8 minutes ago, markr said:

And I'm making sure the stem is staying in.

Any time you were removing the stem from the watch in which position was the watch in? In other words typically when you remove a stem from a watch it's in the winding position so was it in the winding position or the setting position when you inserted or remove the stem?

[Plato]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

somehow doubt that that's the problem as I've never heard of that before. We really need a picture

I'm pretty sure I can prove it. I have an old stock of mercury batteries. I can post you one for experimentation. They (ESA9162) start better with mercury batteries. Once up and running, it makes no difference. 

[HectorLooi]

In the past year, I've serviced more than 10 tuning fork watches, mostly Accutrons 214s, a couple of 218s, a 219 and a 228. I still have an ESA 9162 on my workbench.

I noticed that most if them start up just fine but some need gentle coaxing to get them started. The ESA 9162 is one of them. I'm not sure if it's inherent to the circuit design or if the components have deteriorated as all of them are over 50 years old.

[Plato]

7 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

The ESA 9162 is one of them. I'm not sure if it's inherent to the circuit design or if the components have deteriorated as all of them are over 50 years old.

The only sensitive component that suffers wear is the index wheel. I'm convinced that a modern battery affects the performance of the original design. Please check the internal resistance of a silver oxide battery compared to a mercury equivalent, it is inferior. @jdm will know this stuff, hopefully? 

[HectorLooi]

I'm refering to electronic components like the transistor, resistor and capacitor. I'm sure solder joints age too. Most electronic components nowadays are only designed to last about 10 years. Those in tuning fork watches are half a century old.

[markr]

[markr]

It's not a starting up issue because just sitting on the movement holder with the battery in it it runs. Pick it up it stops.  Place it back on the movement holder and it starts again.

[Michael1962]

Is the metal movement holder closing a break in a circuit that you may not be aware of?

Does it restart if you put it down on something that is insulated? Plastic movement holder? Working mat?

I really don't now what I am talking about. Just looking at it from a layman's point of view.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, Plato said:

I'm pretty sure I can prove it. I have an old stock of mercury batteries. I can post you one for experimentation. They (ESA9162) start better with mercury batteries. Once up and running, it makes no difference. 

I'm looking forward to your test results as I still don't think it's the problem, but I'm not an electrical engineer either so I will look forward to the test results.

[HectorLooi]

That's really strange. Your movement holder appears to be plastic, so the theory of a metal holder shirting and completing the curcuit doesn't hold.

The 219 also doesn't have a hacking switch, so that eliminates another possibility.

Can you remove the battery and power it from your tester while the movement is not in the holder?

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, markr said:

It's not a starting up issue because just sitting on the movement holder with the battery in it it runs. Pick it up it stops.  Place it back on the movement holder and it starts again.

I need a better picture of something? Then I think I asked a question which didn't get answered let me see and I will quote it?

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Any time you were removing the stem from the watch in which position was the watch in? In other words typically when you remove a stem from a watch it's in the winding position so was it in the winding position or the setting position when you inserted or remove the stem?

Now the reason I asked the question I did is in the 218 manual it says when removing the stem you should always do the following which is what? Notice when ever removing the stem from a 218 it must be in the setting position? The reason for this is if you don't do this you have the possibility of getting it in an interesting position of both running and setting at the same time. This means if it's in the running position and you turn the crown the gear train will spin it's very bad for the index wheel so I wouldn't try. I can't tell in the photograph but it looks to me like the  little brass pin that is used to move the finger away looks like it's touching but it's really hard to tell in the photographs and it's not supposed to be touching when the watches running it should be a way just a little bit. But it may be a picture optical illusion.

Then I should delete everything up above because I feel really stupid? But since I tend to feel stupid a lot I'm going to leave what I posted up above because it's still a good thing to remember. So why do I feel stupid because I wasn't paying attention to your pictures At least paying attention to the way we should have. I snipped out a couple more images and circled a mystery component I don't suppose you're missing any screws?

 

 

[HectorLooi]

Wow, good eye JohnR725! We all looked but didn't see. It's very common for dropped screws to stick to the fork magnets.

But that doesn't explain why it works in the holder and not outside.