Epilame / Fixodrop

[nickelsilver]

17 hours ago, watchweasol said:

  I also found out that Stearic acid dissolves readily in Ethanol,  more readily than Acetone.    Its a common fatty acid used in the soap/cosmetic industry. 

Hmm, I wouldn't be surprised if it dissolves better in ethanol than isopropyl. I was looking at my old (empty) bottle of Moebius Aretol and on the back is printed that they switched from a toxic solvent to a safe one, which ethanol sounds about right.

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, mikepilk said:

But keep the top tightly on, it does like to escape

 

19 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The original epilame that Moebius sold (Aretol) was stearic acid in some sort of a solvent base.

The reference to escaping is very valid unfortunately. My first exposure to surface treating was in a shop that was doing it incorrectly for variety reasons. In the early days when the watch companies trusted watchmakers and individual shops were service agents or providers for more brands this shop was authorized to service Seiko watches. So on the small ladies high-frequency watches the entire pallet fork is dropped into the bottle of Aretol. Then I learned something interesting if you turn it upside down the pallet fork falls into the lid gently turn over and most the time ill stay at the top of the bottle where you can grab it. Note this is not how you're supposed to apply it because you're not supposed to have it on the pivots or on the side of the fork but that's how we did it.

Then of course there is a proper drying procedure and I'm sure we did not do that correctly either. So I do have a bottle of that and what do I have a brown bottle some sort of residue in the bottom. Even though I kept the lid on really tight it just escaped all by itself never to be seen again

Then the newer stuff which I never get around to using because I just picked the right lubricants that I don't use it seems to be staying in the bottles that is because the newest stuff is supposed to be environmentally friendly and it doesn't evaporate super superfast.

One of the references to drying procedure and superfast evaporation is the other problem with the older stuff. The solvent evaporated so fast it would cause condensation on the steel part of the fork. You would end up with rust the used be a website which is long since gone that had pictures of jewels like the roller jewel cut in half from the rust on the end of the fork at least that was the theory of how the rust got there. I was a lecture once was explained that when you put it on the fork just on the stones then you are supposed to dry it with a hairdryer really really fast or else you got rust so the choices solvent is also an issue

Then there is a minor other problems a DIY message as somebody mentioned above. There is an elaborate procedure when you're supposed to be using it in other words you not supposed to drop parts into the entire bottle. You supposed to poured out into a special bottle which is really expensive and it's a special shapes the fluids in the bottom turn it upside down it gets into the basket on the top gets all the parts Coated that are supposed to be coated. Turn the bottle over it goes back into the bottom and from time to time you change the solution possibly crying each time you pour out that expensive fluid. The reason is if the concentration builds up to strong the Coating is too thick And that supposed to present a problem also

19 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have a cleaning machine that has a chamber that melts stearic acid and you put the parts in (not in the acid, in the chamber) for 30s or a minute and it deposits a microscopic layer of the fumes.

Personally I'm still in favor of this method it seems simple. The microscopic layer is all you need it would eliminate all those other pesky problems. I don't suppose you have any idea how hot the chamber gets?

 

 

[OTH]

18 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

The reference to escaping is very valid unfortunately. My first exposure to surface treating was in a shop that was doing it incorrectly for variety reasons. In the early days when the watch companies trusted watchmakers and individual shops were service agents or providers for more brands this shop was authorized to service Seiko watches. So on the small ladies high-frequency watches the entire pallet fork is dropped into the bottle of Aretol. Then I learned something interesting if you turn it upside down the pallet fork falls into the lid gently turn over and most the time ill stay at the top of the bottle where you can grab it. Note this is not how you're supposed to apply it because you're not supposed to have it on the pivots or on the side of the fork but that's how we did it.

Then of course there is a proper drying procedure and I'm sure we did not do that correctly either. So I do have a bottle of that and what do I have a brown bottle some sort of residue in the bottom. Even though I kept the lid on really tight it just escaped all by itself never to be seen again

Then the newer stuff which I never get around to using because I just picked the right lubricants that I don't use it seems to be staying in the bottles that is because the newest stuff is supposed to be environmentally friendly and it doesn't evaporate super superfast.

One of the references to drying procedure and superfast evaporation is the other problem with the older stuff. The solvent evaporated so fast it would cause condensation on the steel part of the fork. You would end up with rust the used be a website which is long since gone that had pictures of jewels like the roller jewel cut in half from the rust on the end of the fork at least that was the theory of how the rust got there. I was a lecture once was explained that when you put it on the fork just on the stones then you are supposed to dry it with a hairdryer really really fast or else you got rust so the choices solvent is also an issue

Then there is a minor other problems a DIY message as somebody mentioned above. There is an elaborate procedure when you're supposed to be using it in other words you not supposed to drop parts into the entire bottle. You supposed to poured out into a special bottle which is really expensive and it's a special shapes the fluids in the bottom turn it upside down it gets into the basket on the top gets all the parts Coated that are supposed to be coated. Turn the bottle over it goes back into the bottom and from time to time you change the solution possibly crying each time you pour out that expensive fluid. The reason is if the concentration builds up to strong the Coating is too thick And that supposed to present a problem also

Personally I'm still in favor of this method it seems simple. The microscopic layer is all you need it would eliminate all those other pesky problems. I don't suppose you have any idea how hot the chamber gets?

 

 

Strange that they had rust issues. Perhaps due to contamination? Stearic acid is used in a few coatings/paints as it inhibits rust development. 

Do you buy specific lubricants that then do not require you to use any form of fixodrop? (Sorry I might have misunderstood here)

[JohnR725]

I think you'll find the website below interesting. That's because we get the technical sheets and actually have a solvent at least for their stuff I don't know if would work with the stearic acid. I remember seeing before they had some references about the drawing which conflicted with one I think I was told that will find out how good my memory is

If you look at the very top is  EcoSolv That serve environmental solvent that supposedly a good cleaning product I wonder if it's affordable oh wait it comes from Switzerland don't even think about that question.

Is way too much to look at. You can begin in the concentrated form and then deluded yourself. There's also the more deluded if you had super super clean parts.

Was looking for was the usage so I thought I'll look at my bottle to see what number I have 8941 250 mL bottle lats probably only one quarter was used it still didn't act hasn't evaporated like the last stuff and according the price sticker on the box I paid $15 for it benefits of going to nawcc regional meetings were sometimes stuff was founded insanely good prices. Unfortunately it does not help at all because I wanted the instructions

So my guess is this would be the equivalent today Fixodrop WR-S. In looking at the PDF instructions sheet for the drying times? You really should look at the instructions for the various surface treatments is it does give some clues about things like it has to be done right or possible problems can occur doesn't necessarily say what the problems are. So your parts are nicely coated and you have to put it in a stream of air at 60°C not exactly a hairdryer but they do recommend immediate drying For best results.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/epilames

[hagantic42]

Hey, brand new to the site but I am a chemist by trade. Here's some the best summary I can make. Warning no TLDR.

So The fixodrop is purfloroacyrlic polymer, and pretty nasty stuff. The short fluorinated chain or "tail" is what stands up of the surface of the part like a pillar causing the oil to stay in place. The fixodrop will work more effectively than steric acid. It will bind better to the metal parts and the the "tail" of steric acid is lipophilic, while the fluorinated tail of the fixodrop is omniphobic. The lipophilic steric acid will work mainly due to the physical spacing of the tails acting like pillars the oil would have to span, the difference is it wants to touch the stearic acid tails but not the fixodrop ones.  

I will tell you this right now. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE STEARIC ACID VAPOR you would need to heat it to over 300C. This is normally done by a process known as chemical vapor deposition and requires a ultrahigh vaccum chamber, a hot plate, and cold plate. The acid is heated in vacuum to make vapor and the cooler parts cause the vapor to deposit. This is the same method used to grow lab made diamonds. It is VERY expensive, and just heating strearic acid to 300c is a really bad idea (even in a lab if you don't have the correct setup.)

The Fixodrop priced so high is because of the demanding chemistry, a fluorinated organic compound is massively expensive to make. Plus to get the thin monolayer it provided low concentration in a powerful solvent like tetrachlorethylene (onedip) which are expensive due to hazards. You are applying a nano layer of teflon like material to ensure oil retention/film integrity. Also the use of high grade fully synthetic oils should reduce the need as they have better film strength and more controlled shear viscosity that reduces unwanted flow.

 

Some additional sources.

https://www.awci.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Seitz_StopOil_TECH.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1927648A1/en

 

For those trying to experiment: Read the following and attempt at your own peril but for the love of god use a organic vapor respirator.

Add 1g Steric acid/ 100g pure ethanol to a seal-able glass jar. Warm to 40C in hot water. Once solution is warm, place parts to be coated in parts basket suspended above the solution and re-seal. Place jar into a sonicator filled with hot water. (the prewarming was to prevent high pressure in sealed jar). Placing jar the in a sonicator basket improves vapor production. Let sit for 5-10 minutes. Remove jar from sonicator and remove parts basket in a well ventilated area. Blow dry. Placing a drop of oil on a non-critical area should show if its working. Let sit for 10-15 minutes and see if there is any spreading.

[hagantic42]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I think you'll find the website below interesting. That's because we get the technical sheets and actually have a solvent at least for their stuff I don't know if would work with the stearic acid. I remember seeing before they had some references about the drawing which conflicted with one I think I was told that will find out how good my memory is

If you look at the very top is  EcoSolv That serve environmental solvent that supposedly a good cleaning product I wonder if it's affordable oh wait it comes from Switzerland don't even think about that question.

Is way too much to look at. You can begin in the concentrated form and then deluded yourself. There's also the more deluded if you had super super clean parts.

Was looking for was the usage so I thought I'll look at my bottle to see what number I have 8941 250 mL bottle lats probably only one quarter was used it still didn't act hasn't evaporated like the last stuff and according the price sticker on the box I paid $15 for it benefits of going to nawcc regional meetings were sometimes stuff was founded insanely good prices. Unfortunately it does not help at all because I wanted the instructions

So my guess is this would be the equivalent today Fixodrop WR-S. In looking at the PDF instructions sheet for the drying times? You really should look at the instructions for the various surface treatments is it does give some clues about things like it has to be done right or possible problems can occur doesn't necessarily say what the problems are. So your parts are nicely coated and you have to put it in a stream of air at 60°C not exactly a hairdryer but they do recommend immediate drying For best results.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/epilames

Ecological Fluorolefin? Yeah that's bull. Most of the time they switch to a chemical that hasn't had any long term testing to PROVE its bad but is chemically identical. Meth is bad but meth and adderal taken at the same level have the same effects, and dangers. Same kinda think here. Note Section 11 of the SDS " Based on available data" which means there is none, but in general there is no such thing as a friendly fluoridated organic compound.

[GuyMontag]

Does anyone have any feedback on this Aliexpress Epilame bottle? I can't tell what volume the bottle holds or the size of the basket/mesh.

 

[Plato]

19 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I can't tell what volume the bottle holds

It doesn't really matter as you'll be filling it up yourself. Hopefully, the top is secure enough to prevent evaporation. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Plato
Wrong wording

[TimpanogosSlim]

7 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

Does anyone have any feedback on this Aliexpress Epilame bottle? I can't tell what volume the bottle holds or the size of the basket/mesh.

 

Headscratcher for me is why it is so expensive. 

I mean i guess if you are buying $150 worth of fix-o-drop, why not? 

I'm never gonna do that. There's an outside chance I might mix up a suspension of reagent grade stearic acid, some day. 

I'll have to ask my retired chemist if this is substantially similar to some piece of labware that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. 

[Plato]

I made my own container. The basket hangs on a hook inside the bottle. Hold the lid secure and screw in the bottle.

It's unsophisticated but it works and is far cheaper than buying that funny little bottle from Moebius.

I just had to find a bottle that the epilame wouldn't evaporate from.

[LittleWatchShop]

Nice!  Where did you source the bottle.  The basket looks like its is from a cleaner (ultrasonic or otherwise).

I have not moved to the "epilame" level yet, but will.  Especially when I finally open up my Valjoux and fix it (sometime this year).

[Plato]

Bottle (USA): https://www.amazon.com/Simax-Borosilicate-Reagent-Storage-Bottle/dp/B08BTR5PL7

Yeah, the basket is a cheap one: https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/indian-mini-baskets?code=B36259

The bottle is important or the epilame slowly evaporates - I tried it first with a 'Kilner' jar but it wasn't good enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Kilner-Square-Clip-Spice-2-Fl/dp/B007MO0IYA/ref=sr_1_11?crid=31DGQPTRMA1VW&keywords=kilner+jar&qid=1645888587&sprefix=kilner+ja%2Caps%2C234&sr=8-11

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

20 hours ago, Plato said:

I made my own container. The basket hangs on a hook inside the bottle. Hold the lid secure and screw in the bottle.

It's unsophisticated but it works and is far cheaper than buying that funny little bottle from Moebius.

I just had to find a bottle that the epilame wouldn't evaporate from.

Since I'm in no danger of having fix-o-drop to waste, I had the idea earlier today that i could find a suitable bottle, and I could form a basket out of some of this very fine expanded chromate-coated aluminum mesh i have, and 3d print some dies to mold an RTV silicone gasket around its flange. And then fill the bottle with a stearic acid solution. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by TimpanogosSlim

[Paul80]

On the subject of Epilame (it was mentioned a few posts up ) as anyone tried the DIY approach, using stearic acid either heated or dissolved in a solution. If dissolved what solution did you dissolve it in and what ratio (Stearic to Solution).

I can't afford the commercial version so need a lower cost option.

Thanks

 

 

[Kraai]

Epilame is a PFAS, so it can be dangerous for the environment.

https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/7830b3db-f564-5f15-3507-e326168fccdd

 

 

 

[Paul80]

Hi all

I hope this question is ok, I did use the search option but found nothing specific.

 

Give the obscene price asked for Epilame has anyone managed to home brew a version.

I understand that Stearic acid used in candle and soap making can be used, either heated or dissolved in a spirit of some sort.

Anyone tried this method or anything else.

Thanks for any input on this.

Paul

[nickelsilver]

On 11/23/2021 at 3:53 PM, nickelsilver said:

The original epilame that Moebius sold (Aretol) was stearic acid in some sort of a solvent base. I have a cleaning machine that has a chamber that melts stearic acid and you put the parts in (not in the acid, in the chamber) for 30s or a minute and it deposits a microscopic layer of the fumes. Philippe Dufour told me he uses stearic acid dissolved in alcohol, at a 1:100 ratio but I never found out if that was by weight or volume. I tried to mix some with 99.9% iso alcohol at that ratio by weight and it leaves a visible deposit; as I just use Fixodrop I didn't experiment any further.

 

So for the curious, yes, you can use stearic acid- do a little experimentation with different solvents, and I think less is truly more on the ratio- it just has to be like a molecule thick layer.

 

 

 

That's from earlier in the thread. Stearic acid is cheap, so experimenting would be as costly as whatever solvents you try. Perhaps try isopropyl but mix by volume rather than weight- it will be a much smaller quantity of stearic acid.

[JohnR725]

If you're looking for a cheaper  application bottle you can find it at the first link. Then the second link has a slightly cheaper product although not much cheaper. Then it looks like it's been discontinued but in addition to the cheaper bottle Zenith used to have their own solution.

Then there's another solution out there and I'm attaching the tech sheet and a link to the website.

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/zenith-soak-coat-jar-for-epilame-150.015.html

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/episurf-neo-details.html

https://www.surfactis.com/en/produits/episurf-2/

Episurf-Neo-GB.pdf

[mzinski]

When and how can one expect Epilame coatings to wear out? 

Longevity: How long will an Epilame coating remain on a part, in a watch? Does it last 5 years? 10 years? 

Ultrasonic Cleaning: Assuming the Epilame is freshly applied, how many ultrasonic cleanings in cleaning fluid and rinse can an Epilame coating withstand? 

Rule of Thumb: When a part requires an Epilame coating (per service manual), what's your rule of thumb for when to reapply one? 

[Paul80]

Hi.

Given that it is recommended to remove Epilame from the pivots by just pressing it into a bit of pithwood, I would suspect it does not last very long and is probably rubbed of the end of the jewel quite quickly by the fingers of the escape wheel.

There are two schools of thought on its use, those who don't say it's a snake oil product, those that do say it's essential.

Personally I try not to give those Ripoff merchants at Bergeon any of my money unless I have too, so don't use it on that basis alone.

 

 

 

[clockboy]

A good question indeed.. I presume eventually it wears off but just looking at the performance of my Rolex it lasts a long time. I had performance issues with the auto side of the Rolex until I cleaned again and treated with Epilame and that was 6 years ago and still running great.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

it is recommended to remove Epilame from the pivots by just pressing it into a bit of pithwood

If that is so, it makes me wonder what use it would be to epilame treat train wheels in the first place? Or, perhaps you're referring to some specific pivots?

[Marc]

I could be very wide of the mark here but I don't think that epilame needs to be hard wearing, in fact I'm not sure that it doesn't need to be fairly easily abraded in order to function the way it's supposed to.

The idea is that it is an oil repellent. you coat the parts with it, then run the watch for a short period without oil. That way the the epilame gets quickly worn away from all of the points of contact. You then oil the movement in the normal way but the oil can only stick to the contact areas where the epilame has been eroded, and it can't spread beyond those areas because that is where the epilame is still intact. The result is that the oil stays where it is supposed to and doesn't get wicked away into the rest of the movement.

[ifibrin]

23 minutes ago, Marc said:

I could be very wide of the mark here but I don't think that epilame needs to be hard wearing, in fact I'm not sure that it doesn't need to be fairly easily abraded in order to function the way it's supposed to.

The idea is that it is an oil repellent. you coat the parts with it, then run the watch for a short period without oil. That way the the epilame gets quickly worn away from all of the points of contact. You then oil the movement in the normal way but the oil can only stick to the contact areas where the epilame has been eroded, and it can't spread beyond those areas because that is where the epilame is still intact. The result is that the oil stays where it is supposed to and doesn't get wicked away into the rest of the movement.

I’ve heard of this reasoning before, and it does make sense. But epilame is also used on cap jewels, where you do want the oil to stick to it. Which seems entirely opposite to this reasoning?

[ifibrin]

Edited April 5, 2022 by ifibrin