Erratic Timegrapher Trace for Rate

[ClusterFoxtrot]

I took these pictures with a cheap USB microscope, which is not much more than a toy really, but there seems to be a definite offset to the hairspring.

I won't be able to do much until the weekend now, but I'd appreciate your continued advice.

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

I took these pictures with a cheap USB microscope,

Out of curiosity do you know what the word Etachron means?

[ClusterFoxtrot]

I really have no idea, I imagined that it was a proprietary name that ETA gave to this design.

[Nucejoe]

55 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

The hairspring is definitely off to one side when the balance is fitted, but it is difficult to see and next to impossible to adjust due to the bunching happening under the balance cock. I'll refit it and try to take a photo.

I have made a habbit of putting only the cock and balance assembly back on the mainplate as soon as I take the movement apart, this would give me max access to the coil, I can check if its level, concentric, breaths evenly , check the shakes , etc   and make any adjustment needed right then.  You would have good access from the sides of the balance to observe the coil when oscilating and max space to make adjustment. Thats doesn't mean minor readjustment wont be necessary following reassembly.

I am sure you like this idea once you give it a try and see the results. 

Best wishes.

 

 

[ClusterFoxtrot]

Thank you, that is excellent advice and something that I will remember for the future.

[Nucejoe]

7 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

I really have no idea, I imagined that it was a proprietary name that ETA gave to this design.

Etachron refers to design of regulator arm and stud. You would easily adjust the width of slot hairspring threads through, which helps with isochronism.

[Nucejoe]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Etachron refers to design of regulator arm and stud. You would easily adjust the width of slot hairspring threads through, which helps with isochronism.

Oops make that regulating pin.

[Nucejoe]

Here is pic of an etachron regulating pin

https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/draw_camera4-jpg.266110/

 

Regs

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, Nucejoe said:

Here is pic of an etachron regulating pin

https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/draw_camera4-jpg.266110/

 

Regs

If the pic doesn't open for you, go to nawcc website,search for eatchron regulator pin.

[VWatchie]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:16 PM, jdm said:

I would give a good look to the HS, particularly how it moves in between regulator pins,

This is something I used to be completely unaware of (my first 10 watches or so). Yes, the HS should be bouncing evenly between the regulator pins.

[VWatchie]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:50 AM, HectorLooi said:

Check it with the bare minimum first, just the drive train and escapement.

This used to be my strategy as well, until I realized and learned that it's a bad idea to wind the mainspring (fully) and let down the mainspring using a screwdriver. So, from now on I'll be starting with the keyless works followed by "the bare minimum".

Edited November 25, 2021 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

I really have no idea, I imagined that it was a proprietary name that ETA gave to this design.

Etachron is actually quite amusing t implies Swiss but the reality is it's Swiss and Japanese the toll the patent on one part of it. Which is why Seiko uses it in all of their watches along with the Swiss.

It's a really a beautiful system as it allows you to make a lot of hairspring adjustments without bending the hairspring. Like you can rotate the stud to move the position of the hairspring you can open up the regulator pins and rotate the stud and make sure they hairspring is absolutely in the center between your pins you don't have to do conventional bending of the hairspring. Then you can close the pins down which as somebody noted above improves isochronism. But if you don't grasp how all of this works you can bend the hairspring or maybe do something else bad.

 

 

[ifibrin]

9 hours ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

Thank you, that is excellent advice and something that I will remember for the future.

Did you demagnetize the movement after reassembly? I wouldn’t mess with the hairspring before doing that...

Edited November 25, 2021 by ifibrin

[ClusterFoxtrot]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

Did you demagnetize the movement after reassembly? I wouldn’t mess with the hairspring before doing that...

Thank you, I did yes, but am wondering if it needs doing again as there might be a very small amount residing.

 

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Etachron is actually quite amusing t implies Swiss but the reality is it's Swiss and Japanese the toll the patent on one part of it. Which is why Seiko uses it in all of their watches along with the Swiss.

It's a really a beautiful system as it allows you to make a lot of hairspring adjustments without bending the hairspring. Like you can rotate the stud to move the position of the hairspring you can open up the regulator pins and rotate the stud and make sure they hairspring is absolutely in the center between your pins you don't have to do conventional bending of the hairspring. Then you can close the pins down which as somebody noted above improves isochronism. But if you don't grasp how all of this works you can bend the hairspring or maybe do something else bad.

 

 

Thank you, it was my understanding that the HS needs to sit between the pins of the regulator stud (although, not touching) throughout its arc of travel, but it is clear to see that turning the stud could act in a similar way to bending the HS. I'd rather follow best practice, whatever that may be in this circumstance, but don't mind a temporary fix that I can revisit once I am more competent.

I think in the future, I'll do more thorough testing at set points in the service, to catch these errors as they occur.

Edited November 25, 2021 by ClusterFoxtrot
Clarification details.

[ClusterFoxtrot]

Good afternoon all,

As promised, an update. I let the watch run down over a couple of days and then retested on the timegrapher, this time, steadily increasing the power by a few winds after each test of dial up and down positions. What became apparent, was that the watch was steady all the way up to the late 290s in amplitude, at this point it started to misbehave again and I'm wondering if it might be either a) coils touching at this high rate, as the spring will be expanding and contracting at its greatest range, or b) perhaps the watch is overbanking, but I don't know what a trace would really look like in this situation.

Amplitude fluctuates between 291 and 309, I dare say that there might be a 1 or two degree movement inn addition either way, depending on the accuracy of the timegrapher.

For info, I didn't use a new mainspring, as the watch history suggested that it wasn't heavily used, although it clearly looks as though someone else has had a look inside at some point. I put three tiny dots of a moly grease on the barrel wall, I think it is quite similar to Kluber P125 and is quite sticky, certainly moreso than the  Moebius 8217.

At this point, I'm inclined to put it back together again,, but still interested in knowing what might be the root cause.

 

[ClusterFoxtrot]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:16 AM, jdm said:

I would give a good look to the HS, particularly how it moves in between regulator pins, then give it a one more good cleaning with an horological product. It could be that it occasionally sticks somewhere.

This is a possibility.

[Nucejoe]

Are you  set up to record close up vids of the coil when running at high amplitude, one from side view of the balance to show the coil when its running another from top view looking straigth down. 

[ClusterFoxtrot]

25 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Are you  set up to record close up vids of the coil when running at high amplitude, one from side view of the balance to show the coil when its running another from top view looking straigth down. 

I can do an overhead view, not so easy in the case, but could perhaps de-case. I'll see what I can do...

 

[jdm]

 

7 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

I can do an overhead view, not so easy in the case, but could perhaps de-case. I'll see what I can do...

From previous posts I believe that your hairspring is 95% or more near to perfect shape. It's normal for an hairspring not to "breath" perfectly even all around. In my experience that is not enough to cause rate fluctuations.

[LittleWatchShop]

How did you clean the balance assembly? I would take another pass at cleaning it with one-dip if you have it.

If the hairspring is randomly sticking, you might get the reading you see.

[ClusterFoxtrot]

6 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How did you clean the balance assembly? I would take another pass at cleaning it with one-dip if you have it.

If the hairspring is randomly sticking, you might get the reading you see.

Thank you, I haven't cleaned it, just blown with a puffer. I only cleaned and lubricated the jewel. It might well be the problem.

In the meantime, here's the video. The HS looks over to one side to me, how much difference this makes, I don't know.

[LittleWatchShop]

Also, what kind of demagnitizer did you use? A pull-away, or instantaneous? My e penitence is that instantaneous are more effective.

[ClusterFoxtrot]

The demagnetiser is of a pull away type, but has always worked in the past. I cannot convert mp4 to a forum friendly format yet, but will upload it as soon as I can.

[LittleWatchShop]

4 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

The demagnetiser is of a pull away type, but has always worked in the past. I cannot convert mp4 to a forum friendly format yet, but will upload it as soon as I can.

My issue with those is that you need to pull away a couple of feet or something at a more or less constant rate...going from memory because it has been awhile since I used it.

Maybe try again as someone else suggested.

Edited November 27, 2021 by LittleWatchShop

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

or b) perhaps the watch is overbanking, but I don't know what a trace would really look like in this situation.

One of the things that catches people new to watch repair is looking for problems that don't exist and not looking at the basic stuff. I seriously doubt it would be overbanking but just in case it is I have a link to video which explains what it is

https://youtu.be/DxeM85XRTbU

Perhaps what you're thinking was another word like rebanking

https://youtu.be/Rcqrb3_vin8

Because the above example doesn't have a digital machine here's another version you'll notice of the amplitude has to be much higher than what you have and he has basically a straight line until the condition occurs which is not what you have

https://youtu.be/7KNTrHVD088

6 minutes ago, ClusterFoxtrot said:

Thank you, I haven't cleaned it, just blown with a puffer. I only cleaned and lubricated the jewel. It might well be the problem.

Went back in the is reading original posting and I'm confused? It indicates that you service the watch Which usually involves cleaning everything. So perhaps just a quick list of servicing means to you to do what? No words what did you do the watch you took it apart and