Haller Westminster Movement (first look) issues.

[Moose]

Just took this Westminster Chime movement in from a neighbour. Never worked on a Westminster chime before, but familiar enough with striking cloaks a-la Enfield etc.

First observations are that basic timekeeping is OK, but very low on power reserve, from a full wind it only lasts 12 hours or so. I adjusted it to an even beat, but again, first looks indicate a very low amplitude of swing, so may be bearing wear on the going train, dirty movement or a very weak going spring (or all three).

Westminster Chime operates correctly when manually advanced. But I have noticed that when the Silence lever is operated, it does silence the chimes but when taken Off silence, the Westminster sequence goes out of whack, until after about one rotation of the hour hand, when it gets itself back into correct sequence. Is this normal?

The main issue ( other than a general service to improve timekeeping and power reserve), is the hour strike. I only seem to get a higher number of strikes. When manually advancing, I get anywhere between 8 and 12 strikes, no matter what the hour hand is indicating. It is not really consistent, but random, but always 8 or more. Would this be something stopping the rack falling onto the snail cam correctly?

Movement shown below, I’m assuming it’s nothing special.

Any hints and tips would be gratefully received. I have not uncased it yet. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Moose
Spelling

[watchweasol]

Hi Moose  when the silence lever is returned to normal it tales one cycle for the auto correct mechanism to re latch and allows normal striking to resume.

The indifferent strike could be related to the rack and snail being out of sync or even the gears at the rear of the clock  being out of sync.  When you operate the chimes by rotating the min hand do they all strike correctly the 1/4s   1/2    3/4   and the hour and strike   and is the tune correct. if the chine barrel and gears are out the tune is wrong

https://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/basicnotes.htm   this site explains the strike order on the hammers.        cheers

[Moose]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Moose  when the silence lever is returned to normal it tales one cycle for the auto correct mechanism to re latch and allows normal striking to resume.

The indifferent strike could be related to the rack and snail being out of sync or even the gears at the rear of the clock  being out of sync.  When you operate the chimes by rotating the min hand do they all strike correctly the 1/4s   1/2    3/4   and the hour and strike   and is the tune correct. if the chine barrel and gears are out the tune is wrong

https://www.davewestclocks.co.uk/basicnotes.htm   this site explains the strike order on the hammers.        cheers

H watchweasol.

OK on the silence lever action. All understood.

I think there is a misalignment with the rack lever and the snail. I have the movement out of the clock now, and can see that nothing ever contacts the snail. But of the levers I can see, I cant see anything that would align with it easily, so I suspect it may have bee reassembled incorrectly at some point. I have included some pics of the movement so you can see.

The Westminster chime sequence runs correctly once resynchronised, it is just the hour strikes that are incorrect.

I'm trying to see what needs realignment to rest on the snail cam to set the rack correctly. but can't find a diagram as yet.

 

[oldhippy]

You have given a good description of typical wear and dirt that these movements suffer from. A good clean and re bush will put all that is wrong right and don't for get to check the pivots and polish them.  You will need a mainspring winder for the three springs, if they are in a poor condition replace them with new.  It is correct when the chime is out for it to take an hour or so to put it self right.   

[watchweasol]

Hi Moose  right,  when the snail cam and center cam hour wheel move round the largest lobe on the center cam lifts  the lifting piece just below the rack, this lifts the long lever and releases the warning wheel which does 1/4 to 1/2 turn before stopping on the long lever  2nd projection,  and the rack drops and the lever drops onto the snail on the appropriate flat relavent to the strike count.  then the  warning drops off the long lever and this releases the strike and the  kidney cam counts the strike back untill it is locked  and every thing is reset untill the next time.  

I have one of these on the bench now partly done, cleaned and assembled  but needs setting up  the pendulum swing on mine is not much but releases the escapement .   Hope it all makes sense. Goes with out saying check all pivots etc and bush where required, you built the spring remover so that should be ok,  it did mine ok.           cheers

[Moose]

Thanks oldhippy and watchweasol.

Everyday is a learning day, as they say!

I have figured out the strike problem as well. I was cycling the mechanism by hand and could see there was nothing on the rack tail contacting with the hour cam. In the pictures above, there is a steel lever on the rack pivot which should have been falling onto the cam, but it was slightly bent out of shape, so was most of the time, not making contact or falling in the right place.

I bent it slightly back and cycled it through all 12 hours and it now seems to be just fine.

All I need now is to strip it and give it good clean, inspect all the pivots and bushes and then put it back.

Thanks to all, for forcing me to focus on what I know should be happening, and looking for why it was not!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Moose

[Moose]

5 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Moose  right,  when the snail cam and center cam hour wheel move round the largest lobe on the center cam lifts  the lifting piece just below the rack, this lifts the long lever and releases the warning wheel which does 1/4 to 1/2 turn before stopping on the long lever  2nd projection,  and the rack drops and the lever drops onto the snail on the appropriate flat relavent to the strike count.  then the  warning drops off the long lever and this releases the strike and the  kidney cam counts the strike back untill it is locked  and every thing is reset untill the next time.  

I have one of these on the bench now partly done, cleaned and assembled  but needs setting up  the pendulum swing on mine is not much but releases the escapement .   Hope it all makes sense. Goes with out saying check all pivots etc and bush where required, you built the spring remover so that should be ok,  it did mine ok.           cheers

Yes, got it now. There is a separate lever on the same pivot as the rack and it was slightly bent out of shape and the pin on it was not making contact with the cam most of the time. a slight bend and I managed to get it correctly aligned again. All now seem OK, apart from still needing a service.

Many thanks.

 

[watchweasol]

Spot on Moose you managed to understand it then ,     good luck with the clock they are well made  and good clocks.       cheers