3d printer

[gary17]

Hey guys

I am going to be buyin g a 3d printer. It will be mainly used for making tools i can use to hel p with watches.  (movement holders, mainspring winders etc)I really do not want to spend more than £500 if possible.

I was hoping some of you could let me know what would possibly be a good buy. I have never used one and know very little about them.

What kind of pastic thats on the reels is best to use. Lasts the longest etc.

Any pros or cons?

just any info you think may be useful.

cheers

gary

[LittleWatchShop]

Based on your price range, I would get a Prusa Mini+.  I do not have one.  I have a Lulzbot Mini which is about 2x $$ of a Prusa, but Prusa gets rave reviews.  I run my printer wirelessly using a Raspbarry Pi running OctoPrint.  It is seamless for me.

I do my designs using FreeCAD which is an open source tool.

I use PLA almost exclusively.  I have a roll of flexible filament that I use once in a great while.

My 3D printer is an amazing utilitarian device.  Sometimes, I am printing things daily...practical things...repair parts, tools, mods, etc.

The brand of filament I prefer is Polylite.  I have used others with less success.

[gary17]

Hey

Thanks for info. Prusa has a lot of problems as well.

Do these machines print smooth. I mean does the walls of an iten look layered or smooth?

Do you need to file item you produce smooth or is it produced ready to go.

Cheers

Gary

[LittleWatchShop]

The only way to get smooth is to print with ABS and bath the finished print in an acetone vapor.  I do not print using ABS because of the fumes.

Yes, the majority of my prints show the layers.  I can set to fine print and minimize this but you will still see the layering.  Nothing I print is for aesthetic...functional only.

I have sanded a few prints when I needed (for functional reasons) a smooth surface.  But, this is rare.

 

[gary17]

Hey

Thanks again if what you print you can use. That's all I need.

Cheers

Gary

[Jack75]

The Creality Ender 3 V2 with Bowden or Creality direct drive prints as smooth as a baby's skin provided that you use USB connetion and a good slicer. I use Simplify3D and with Filaflex TPU60 (non toxic) I make perfect smooth gaskets and seals. PLA is used for tools. Either Simplify3D $$ or the free Cura can pruduce smooth objects if time is spent on the settings.

[LittleWatchShop]

41 minutes ago, Jack75 said:

pruduce smooth objects

Would love to see one of your PLA prints

[jdm]

17 hours ago, gary17 said:

I am going to be buyin g a 3d printer. It will be mainly used for making tools i can use to hel p with watches.  (movement holders, mainspring winders etc)I really do not want to spend more than £500 if possible.

I have a 3D printer, "best bang for the buck" that's an Ender 3, latest version is less than £200. Beside that I have used very little in general, when it comes to watchmaking I find it of limited usefulness.
My view is that nothing replaces the functionality, feel, and looks of metal tools.  £500 would buy you a good lot a quality tools, either used or Chinese ones. And if you occasionally need to print something just give it to someone specialized, it won't be expensive and they will figure out all the filament, temperature, nozze blah blah blah details. But even before it comes to printing, 3D stuff is an intensively computer related task. When one starts to dwell into CAD, that is an hugely time consuming task, and potential source of frustration.

 

[Jack75]

Smooth contours and leading edges. Essential to use 'Advanced' settings in Simplify3d - it is really well worth the $150.

For tools I don't usually bother . But for gaskets and seals the surfaces are mirror like.

[gary17]

Hey

Thanks everyone. After reading all your comments I think I will go along with jdm. Reason I am not great with new software (cad) and as jdm says it can take up a lot of time.

So thanks everyone much appreciated.

Cheers

Gary

[LittleWatchShop]

54 minutes ago, jdm said:

When one starts to dwell into CAD, that is an hugely time consuming task, and potential source of frustration.

A finely crafted metal tool brings great pleasure.  No question about it.  On the other hand, designing a solution one's head and translating that to a CAD tool and ultimately printing it also brings great satisfaction--especially when it solves a problem where no solution currently exists (which is common for one-off kinds of problems).

I am crafting a mainspring winder for clocks.  It will have a mixture of fine metal components with some 3D-printed ones.  I have the money to buy the best on the market...hundreds of them, but the satisfaction from a DIY has a different kind of value.

[Jack75]

Probably a good decision as it  takes up much time.

Unless you are driven to it as for my need of this seal for an IWC Novecento that is otherwise unobtainable.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Jack75
typo

[spectre6000]

It may be worth looking hard at a machine that's capable of ABS even if you intend to primarily use PLA. I believe the only difference is temperature. ABS is generally a better materially mechanically. 

SLA printers may be worth a look-see. The resolution is phenomenal, and I recall the mechanical properties being pretty excellent. Been a long time since I've been around one, but the price has come WAY down. The google ad that comes up first when I search it is only $399. I'm sure it's pretty small format, but for watchmaking, there's really nothing all that big anyway.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

It may be worth looking hard at a machine that's capable of ABS even if you intend to primarily use PLA. I believe the only difference is temperature. ABS is generally a better materially mechanically. 

Typically the difference between PLA and ABS as far as the printer goes is ABS requires a heated bed. PLA will stick on a whole bunch of stuff but if you want your ABS to stick it needs a heated bed. Then having a heated bed isn't necessarily unique to ABS there's other materials that need it also. So generally a heated bed printer will cost a little more money than a non-heated bed.

Then now their way more filaments and ABS and PLA is all sorts of nifty things out there to print. Some of which will require heated beds and others may require a different hot end assembly that takes higher temperatures. All things which will push the cost the printer up.

16 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

The only way to get smooth is to print with ABS and bath the finished print in an acetone vapor.  I do not print using ABS because of the fumes.

Yes if you really want super smooth ABS and acetone vapor works really well but? The process works like this you need a large jar big enough to hold your object. You place liquid acetone on the bottom of the jar place that on your heated bed on the 3-D printer. Heated up the acetone goes in the vapor fortunately it's heavy and tends to stay in the bottom of the jar. Then you need to suspend your ABS object in their briefly As whole thing gets really shiny superfast. Then super shiny comes at the cost of fine detail because your melting hopefully just the outer layer of the ABS. It's kind of a tricky process to do basically you will lose detail but it will be super shiny much nicer for rounded objects that you don't care about sharp edges etc.

Then there's another itsy-bitsy problem acetone vapor probably isn't the best for breathing and it is flammable. 

5 hours ago, gary17 said:

After reading all your comments I think I will go along with jdm. Reason I am not great with new software (cad) and as jdm says it can take up a lot of time.

Realistically this is a good choice. The problem with 3-D printers CNC etc. they can make all kinds of fun and Nifty devices but? We haven't reached the point yet where artificial intelligence can read the thoughts in our brain translate to a file and have the object made. The problem becomes people see all the fun exciting things that are being printed and think that they can just buy a printer start printing have nifty objects unfortunately it's more complicated than that.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Realistically this is a good choice.

The 3D CAD issue is a false mental barrier.  It is not hard.  We do not need a USB port to our brain.  It is more complicated than ordering a product over the internet...sure, I get that.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Here is a simple movement holder in FreeCAD

[LittleWatchShop]

How hard is that?

[jdm]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How hard is that?

Very hard for the uninitiated. I posted about freeCAD before. In short it's the typical product of a collective, voluntary output. Documentation is atbeat incomplete, as it just like the software doesn't have to pass any review to be at a standard level. One is lucky already that is some is there and free. The interface is not particularly easy or intuitive, and of course it has bugs. Those that don't know computers face a steep learning curve in CAD. 

That being said, it's not the software quality that is the issue, in fact I do easily find bugs and deficiencies even in commercial software. Perhaps it has to to to having been a test engineering during my IT career and doing with software, developing or using it, for the rest. 

The subjects at hand is that going back to watchmaking, as the OP asked, I believe that traditional fabrication, as in cutting, shaping, bending and welding produces better results than additive manufacturing. I do much prefer and like to get busy on a humble piece of wood to quickly make, say, a mov.t holder than scouring Thingiverse for a ready to print object, let alone learning CAD in its various declination to produce what in the end is a piece of ridged plastic. My opinion only, of course. 

 

[Jack75]

44 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How hard is that?

Well, you have not sliced it This is perhaps more difficult to master.

[LittleWatchShop]

59 minutes ago, Jack75 said:

Well, you have not sliced it This is perhaps more difficult to master.

There are different levels of mastery.  Out of the box, you can use default profiles and achieve useful results. For example, you do not have to agonize over infill pattern given the myriad of choices.  Sure, concentric might be a better choice of you are fabing something circular but you will get acceptable results with most of not all of these choices.

No different in watchmaking.  I will NEVER achieve the mastery or even attempt to achieve the level of say, @nickelsilverbut I will continue to enjoy my lathe(s) and try to make screws and fix watches.  Maybe watchmaking is just too hard, no?

Hey, I have a large cardboard box of failed prints.  I call it my "box of shame." 

Edited November 5, 2021 by LittleWatchShop

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

additive manufacturing

Were it not for additive manufacturing, we would not be having this conversation over the internet!!  Fundamental to integrated circuits, even fundamental discrete devices (the PN junction) relies on additive manufacturing.

But, I get your point...and I enjoy the things you identified as well...though I am sure I am not so good at them yet.

For movement holders, I have built an algorithm into FreeCAD (aka spreadsheet), so that I can inter the diameter of the movement and hit carriage return...20 minutes later (while I am enjoying a Jameson) the holder is done.

[LittleWatchShop]

I bought an LED lamp for watchbench #3 and was not happy by the range of motion of the lamp head.  All I needed to do was to extend the articulating connector an inch or so.  I just needed an adapter.  So I designed, printed, and installed it.  No such item exists in the world nor on Thingiverse for that matter.  You could build this with a block of wood, a table saw, a router (on a router table) and a sanding disk--no question about it.  I built it on my desk occupied with a 2'x2' footprint.

[LittleWatchShop]

7 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I bought an LED lamp for watchbench #3 and was not happy by the range of motion of the lamp head.  All I needed to do was to extend the articulating connector an inch or so.  I just needed an adapter.  So I designed, printed, and installed it.  No such item exists in the world nor on Thingiverse for that matter.  You could build this with a block of wood, a table saw, a router (on a router table) and a sanding disk--no question about it.  I built it on my desk occupied with a 2'x2' footprint.

 

[jdm]

31 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

For movement holders, I have built an algorithm into FreeCAD (aka spreadsheet), so that I can inter the diameter of the movement and hit carriage

Parametical / programmatic / scripted object creation. Which is great, but requires even more knowledge and disposition toward software, and not of the "spreadsheet formula" type. In other words it requires that one already is, or become, a programmer, with the associated skills including perseverance.

My friend the blacksmith asked me if I could find him an easy solution to model basic stairs, nothing complicated. I undertook the task with freeCAD, monkeying around with Phyton was the smaller of the problems, but after some days I was not even completely done with handling an half smat input form. Never made to the intricacies of programmable properties of objects or workbenches. Maybe I'm a slow learner in that area, but it became clear to me that to achieve the quality level which I expect from myself would have taken too much of my time, and quietly gave up.

What I'm trying to say, all these cool things you see from 2D CAD, to rendering to videogames to virtual reality do not come by themselves. It takes an awful lot of time to get even basic results, and as with everything, not everyone has the same talent and can reach the same levels. Personally as I said I do not regret at all to never have learned this stuff, because when it comes to making or even just fixing, I like to not fully depend on a computer to get things done.

[LittleWatchShop]

10 minutes ago, jdm said:

Parametical / programmatic / scripted object creation. Which is great, but requires even more knowledge and disposition toward software, and not of the "spreadsheet formula" type. In other words it requires that one already is, or become, a programmer, with the associated skills including perseverance.

My friend the blacksmith asked me if I could find him an easy solution to model basic stairs, nothing complicated. I undertook the task with freeCAD, monkeying around with Phyton was the smaller of the problems, but after some days I was not even completely done with handling an half smat input form. Never made to the intricacies of programmable properties of objects or workbenches. Maybe I'm a slow learner in that area, but it became clear to me that to achieve the quality level which I expect from myself would have taken too much of my time, and quietly gave up.

What I'm trying to say, all these cool things you see from 2D CAD, to rendering to videogames to virtual reality do not come by themselves. It takes an awful lot of time to get even basic results, and as with everything, not everyone has the same talent and can reach the same levels. Personally as I said I do not regret a to never have learned this stuff, because when it comes to making or even fixing, I like to not fully depend on a computer to get things done.

OK, lets call it a tie!

I have a Ph.D. in EE.  I am not crowing about it, but to say that one of the most important things I got out of my  studies was to not be afraid to tackle the unknown.  I had my son, my one and only child, the year I earned my doctorate and I determined to instill in him the same fearlessness when it comes to discovery.

Anyway...3D printers are fun.  Routers are fun...screwplates are fun...lathes are fun.  I love it all!!!!!!  I hope I dont run out of years!

Edited November 5, 2021 by LittleWatchShop