Health of the Industry

[WatchWood]

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I guess when the market is huge, industry players can afford to go open source. But in a small niche market, manufacturers tend to be more protectionistic. 

Like in the dental sector, which is really small, manufacturers tend to be rather protective. Our equipment need special tooling to disassemble them or risk damage. And with every new range of equipment, even from the same manufacturer, new tooling is required.

Recently I learned that a prominent European dental equipment manufacturer started putting code into their motherboard to cripple their equipment if a routine maintenance service is not performed.

Hasn't that been going on with the farming sector for years. I have read stories about farmers being stuck for hours in the middle of harvest because a fuse has blown and they are waiting for a technician - if they change it they lose their warranty!! A prominent manufacturer of all-in-one's is facing backlash because you cannot use the scanner if there is no ink in the printer!!

[spectre6000]

20 hours ago, WatchWood said:

Or a move out of Europe to avoid it (cynical, I know!)

I didn't realize that was also going on over there. It's been bubbling around over here too. 

18 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Many people aren’t aware, but these days the entire Microsoft .NET platform is Open Source. What used to cost thousands of dollars is now free to download available on GitHub. I think they did the right thing for everyone, themselves and the consumers.

I think the watch industry would benefit from moving in the same direction.

I started a company nearly a decade ago in the energy finance space. I knew very little about software engineering at the time, and hired an engineer to develop a prototype. For some stupid reason (probably because it's what he knew best and I didn't know better), we went with .NET. It was a mistake for a number of reasons, the license cost being only one of them.

I don't think .NET going open source had anything to do with Microsoft being a big player in a big industry so much as the language pretty much died. If you can choose between a $10K license to build your product on an outmoded technology, or using the latest greatest cutting edge tools for free, which would you choose? At this point, it's pretty much relegated to legacy systems where management can't wrap their heads around the concept of tech debt. Money now in favor of ruin later when it's someone else's problem.

[LittleWatchShop]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:41 PM, nickelsilver said:

I make components

I am in awe.  Do you ever make videos of making such complex things like escape wheels and pallet forks?  I would love to see them. 

[nickelsilver]

51 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am in awe.  Do you ever make videos of making such complex things like escape wheels and pallet forks?  I would love to see them. 

Ha thanks! I don't have time to do proper vids, but I do post on a certain photo sharing site (same moniker). There is a post on making a chronometer escape wheel too!

[LittleWatchShop]

6 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

a certain photo sharing site

found you!

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

found you!

and so did I! 

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I don't think .NET going open source had anything to do with Microsoft being a big player in a big industry so much as the language pretty much died.

Not sure we're talking about the same thing and I guess we shouldn't really start a discussion about it as it is way OT!

The topic is complex and can be viewed from many different angles, but just a few words  .NET - or to be more precise, .NET Core - is a cross platform Open Source code library (including several programming languages) which can be executed on Linux, MacOS, and Windows computers, and it is growing in popularity. There's a plethora of programming languages that uses .NET, but the most popular is C#, and it's among the most used back-end programming languages among all platforms. Only Python and Java - also back-end programming languages - are more popular, but the most recent syntax in Java has been adopted from C# (which is a younger more modern language). It is my impression that since several years C# leads the way in developing syntax for increased productivity.

It is also my impression that the .NET platform is very much alive and is very progressive, especially in the field of cross platform development (Interoperability is unique to .NET, which allows its applications to run seamlessly on other platforms, except for Windows, such as MacOS and Linux). And again, .NET as well as all tooling it is Open Source and open for contributions since several years back. Unfortunately, many people still think that .NET isn't Open Source.

".NET is open source and cross-platform and is maintained by Microsoft and the .NET community on GitHub. .NET consistently ranks among the top 30 most active open source projects since 2017, as tracked by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation.

All aspects of .NET Core are open source including class libraries, runtime, compilers, languages, ASP.NET Core web framework, Windows desktop frameworks, and Entity Framework Core data access library, and more."

- https://dotnet.microsoft.com/platform/open-source

I would take it that your conception that .NET somehow died or is dying is your subjective description of having a very bad experience with .NET and your hired an engineer. I believe over 25 % of all IT projects (regardless of platform) are described as failures so you are not alone, but I think it would be incorrect to blame it on .NET. More likely, your problem was with the "engineer", who possible said things like "that's not possible on the .NET platform" to escape responsibility. Of course, I'm just guessing here.

Conclusively, yes there are more popular languages and platforms but to say that .NET is dead or dying is just not correct. I would say .NET is thriving and contributing to the world of IT that we're all now living in.

[spectre6000]

Mayhap my statement of its death was exaggerated. Deathwardly direction may have been more accurate. Admittedly, I haven't looked at .NET since then (nearly ten years ago), but I've not come across another single project or engineer using it  in any capacity in all that time. My wife is also in the tech industry, and I'm pretty sure it's not crossed her path ever. It may be specific to some domain or another, but nothing I've touched (web apps and sites a handful of years ago for me, and currently for wife, and hardware for me the last several years). I don't dabble on the internet side of things much any more, but I think Javascript is the current darling (it was rapidly becoming so as I was shifting toward hardware). The wife's job is a Ruby on Rails shop.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I think Javascript is the current darling

For sure! You can say that again! 95 % of all programmers in the world use JavaScript in one or another form. Amazing, as it was originally created in two weeks by a single person at Netscape. Anyway, I don't think it would be appropriate to continue this discussion in this thread, so I won't, but thanks for your input!

[jdm]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:42 PM, spectre6000 said:

I think Javascript is the current darling.

Only for general work and in cases where the available developers don't master, or have the time to learn another language. Specialized environments, of which there are too many to list, profitably use something else. Just to give you an example, yes one can write mobile apps in JS, but that quite more limiting than true native applications, which are written in Java or C#.

 

[pinehilljoe]

The fact that Apple is now the world’s largest watchmaker tells you how times have changed.  The trend is more and more for wearable technology.  My wife gave me an apple, and I fave up on a watch I have to remember to charge every night, and gave it to my daughter 

[jdm]

3 hours ago, pinehilljoe said:

The fact that Apple is now the world’s largest watchmaker tells you how times have changed.  

Perhaps Apple (actualy the Chinese factories to which production is contracted) is the largest maker of smart watches. 

These have nothing to do with the watch industry, as they are just consumers electronics, and even less with watchmaking.

[VWatchie]

On 10/24/2021 at 8:31 PM, WatchWood said:

From the owners' perspective would you be happy sending your goods to anyone OTHER than the OEM?

As a matter of fact, the answer is yes! For example, I've serviced my cars with the same guy (originally from Eastern Kurdistan) for the last 15 years. He's simply a genius. I've met few other people who are as impassioned about what they're doing as he is. On top of that he's about 15 % less expensive than the OEM workshops, but still 100 % legit (never any money under the table). I've had horrible experiences with original manufacturer's workshops (especially Volkswagen) where I had to tow my car back to the workshop after a service/repair.

I don't own a Lange (but would love to) and probably never will. However, I would easily trust it to be serviced by some members on WRT. Hell, I might even trust myself to do it if it was one of their less complicated movements. Anyway, it's never going to happen, no matter how accomplished I or anyone else outside of the Lange sphere is. If Lange is strict with their policy they won't even let Roger Smith or Philippe Dufour order spare parts to service and/or repair a Lange watch. Not even owners of Lange or Rolex watches are allowed to buy spare parts, not even a single spare part for their own watch. IMO this morally reprehensible and I believe it's actually is illegal, but those who could do something about it don't bother. Why should they? It's just a (luxury) watch!

Would I trust a service and/or repair of my watch or car to just anyone who said they could do it, without having any references or recommendations? The answer is no. In that case I would go to the original manufacturer.

[VWatchie]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:46 AM, jdm said:

Perhaps Apple (actualy the Chinese factories to which production is contracted) is the largest maker of smart watches.

I call them wrist computers.

[VWatchie]

On 10/24/2021 at 4:42 PM, nickelsilver said:

Pre-clean, then disassemble and inspect, peg all holes, pith all pinions, check the functions, replace any and all worn parts and certain parts regardless just as a precaution, clean again, then a final clean in pristine solutions.

That's a cleaning technique that I'm not familiar with and I'd love to hear more about it! Does it simply mean that you press the pinion into pith wood a few times? What's the purpose and effect? To get rid of any remaining cleaning fluids?

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

That's a cleaning technique that I'm not familiar with and I'd love to hear more about it! Does it simply mean that you press the pinion into pith wood a few times? What's the purpose and effect? To get rid of any remaining cleaning fluids?

Yes, exactly. The best is Florida pithwood buttons, but they seem to have become scarce. The purpose is to mechanically clean the pinion; they can get surprisingly dirty considering they should be without lubrication. I usually put a little benzine on the pithwood to help. This is done in the pre-cleaning phase- then when they come out of clean solutions there's no need to touch them-- and there should be no residue from proper clean solutions.

[VWatchie]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:15 PM, nickelsilver said:

Yes, exactly. The best is Florida pithwood buttons, but they seem to have become scarce. The purpose is to mechanically clean the pinion; they can get surprisingly dirty considering they should be without lubrication. I usually put a little benzine on the pithwood to help. This is done in the pre-cleaning phase- then when they come out of clean solutions there's no need to touch them-- and there should be no residue from proper clean solutions.

I just tried this on a Vostok 2431 (24h motion works) and the result was nothing but spectacular!

I put a few drops of Horosolv degreaser on the pith wood, and I guess Horosolv degreaser is benzine (or a very similar chemical)!? The movement hadn't been serviced for about eight years and there was a mix of green goo (train wheels) and black goo (centre wheel) between the pinion leaves. The green goo came off completely with little effort, but the black goo only partly. However, after having run the parts through my cleaning cycle (70 year old vintage Elma machine), all treated pinions came out looking like new; all shiny and beautiful  Probably cleaner than when they left the factory. Having serviced quite many Vostok movements I know that the black goo would have remained without the "pith wood method".

Previously I've been cleaning out the pinions using pointed peg wood. Extremely time consuming and boring, and the result pretty far from the "pith wood method".

So, another golden tip received and put into practice thanks to @nickelsilver! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:02 PM, VWatchie said:

I just tried this on a Vostok 2431 (24h motion works) and the result was nothing but spectacular!

I put a few drops of Horosolv degreaser on the pith wood, and I guess Horosolv degreaser is benzine (or a very similar chemical)!? The movement hadn't been serviced for about eight years and there was a mix of green goo (train wheels) and black goo (centre wheel) between the pinion leaves. The green goo came off completely with little effort, but the black goo only partly. However, after having run the parts through my cleaning cycle (70 year old vintage Elma machine), all treated pinions came out looking like new; all shiny and beautiful  Probably cleaner than when they left the factory. Having serviced quite many Vostok movements I know that the black goo would have remained without the "pith wood method".

Previously I've been cleaning out the pinions using pointed peg wood. Extremely time consuming and boring, and the result pretty far from the "pith wood method".

So, another golden tip received and put into practice thanks to @nickelsilver! 

Hi vw. I'm on something of a budget with certain materials as i spend a lot on tools being a gadget geek. And it's always nice to aquire things. Have you any thoughts on collecting your own pithwood. I do a fair bit of walking and where I live Elderberry is very common.

[VWatchie]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:36 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Have you any thoughts on collecting your own pithwood. I do a fair bit of walking and where I live Elderberry is very common.

Nope! The thought hasn't crossed my mind and I'd be very surprised to learn if pith-wood were to grow just 1000 clicks south of the Arctic Circle 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Nope! The thought hasn't crossed my mind and I'd be very surprised to learn if pith-wood were to grow just 1000 clicks south of the Arctic Circle 

I thought surely. A quick google tells me elderflower is a popular drink in Sweden ?