An Interesting Old Clock

[clockboy]

I agree with CDJ the only realistic way forward is to make a new pivot.  I have looked through my collection of bits & bobs but no luck.

 

The alternative is I found this on eBay & it might be worth a gamble item No. 161680505957

​or

the following site has a lot of wheels for sale they might have the size you are looking for http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/default.aspx

or

These will make the part for you but I expect it will not be cheap http://www.time-n-again.com/services_2

 

 

 

 

 

[Davey57]

Well many thanks to you both for taking the trouble for me and finding a few more options to explore.

 

 

However, the 0.4mm stub could more easily be drilled out to 0.2mm and an inserted 0.2mm friction-fit pin subsequently turned down and burnished to 0.1mm. I suspect that this may be the only solution.

 

If I fail to find a replacement wheel I think this sounds like a good solution. Would this be an easy(ish) proposition for a good clockmaker?  Not easy to find these days, most places I know are only interested in replacing batteries.  Could I ask how much you would estimate it might cost to carry out the above repair? Assuming I can find someone prepared to do it.

 

 

I agree with CDJ the only realistic way forward is to make a new pivot.  I have looked through my collection of bits & bobs but no luck.

 

The alternative is I found this on eBay & it might be worth a gamble item No. 161680505957

​or

the following site has a lot of wheels for sale they might have the size you are looking for http://www.perrinwatchparts.com/default.aspx

or

These will make the part for you but I expect it will not be cheap http://www.time-n-again.com/services_2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the links, a few more avenues to explore.  I should be seeing my friend tomorrow, I will explain the situation and ask him whether he wants to spend some money on it or not. I hope he does to be honest, I know it doesn't belong to me but I would feel rather sad about putting it back together never to run again. I think it deserves a chance.

Cheers

Dave

[clockboy]

Different areas different prices you could ask time-n-again for a quote this will give a ball park figure. The problem normally is the repair costs out way the value of the clock but if it has sentimental value then it could be worth the cost. When I used to service clocks on a regular basis customers did not mind paying between £30 & £50 (depending on the clock) for a service but if I found a broken part then most refused to pay any extra so the clock was returned.

[cdjswiss]

If I fail to find a replacement wheel I think this sounds like a good solution. Would this be an easy(ish) proposition for a good clockmaker?  Not easy to find these days, most places I know are only interested in replacing batteries.  Could I ask how much you would estimate it might cost to carry out the above repair? Assuming I can find someone prepared to do it.

 

I would start by asking Northern Watch and Clock Supplies. They used to offer restored platforms but today that page is empty:

 

http://www.nwcsupplies.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70_1283_1782

 

And the fact that they are offering their platform material at half price suggests that this is the end of another good thing. They may be able to put you in touch with an alternative restorer. They sell pivot caps and so must have customers who can do this job.

 

When I was younger (much younger) a pivot replacement would have taken me about 1 hour. Now, with shaky hands, I would only attempt it on a piece for which I had a spare . A broken carbide drill in the escape stub would trash the part. Fried's book explains how to do this repair using spade drills! Our local market town clockmaker (same age) no longer takes on work requiring new or repaired pieces (as clockboy). His assistant changes batteries.

 

An eBay search for platform escapements provides a large choice including some collections of platform bits and pieces. You could ask these sellers if they have your a suitable escape wheel. You might also find a useful lead there.

 

A long-term solution would be to put it on the shelf until you have acquired the tools and skills. Some of my repairs waited 30 years.

[Davey57]

I completely understand what you are both saying regarding cost of repair versus value of clock. You have given me plenty of leads to follow and I think that is the best bet. I haven't been doing this long but have already learned that patience is required, these things can not be hurried. One thing you might clear up for me please. If I contact someone and ask if they have an escape wheel how would I describe it? As an escape wheel for a carriage clock with the following dimensions? Does the movement have a particular name that might help?

Thanks once again.

Dave

[cdjswiss]

You should describe it as 'A platform escape wheel for a small Gübelin carriage clock'. 'platform' is important since other clocks have quite different escape wheels. It is particular in that there is a long shaft above the wheel. This is uncommon but it does make it very suitable for repair. Those with very short shafts have to be cemented onto the lathe chuck but yours could be firmly held in a standard 0.4mm or 0.5mm chuck. This would be a great advantage for the repairer. When inquiring about a repair add a photo.

 

It will be easier to find a repair service than a replacement part. The cost will depend very much on the temperament of the watch/clock maker!

[clockboy]

The problem for me would be making the gear teeth as this is specialist stuff. Although I have a lathe to make the gearing you need an indexing plate & a gear cutting attachment fitted to the lathe. Found two guys who advertise in the BHI who specialises in platform escapement repairs I will PM you with their details.

[bobm12]

For repairing a wheel tooth, check this out, page 28  (from the Borel site as free download):

 

September2011.pdf

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Davey57]

Great stuff. I do appreciate the help.

Thanks

Dave

 

clockboy, I will respond to your pm. Thanks.

[Davey57]

A quick update. I have been in touch with one of the guys clockboy found for me.  I am sending him the platform, he seems quite confident that he will be able to sort something out but would like to see it first.

I will keep you updated with the progress.

[Davey57]

Just to say that today I spoke to Roy who has the platform for repair and he says he is going to make this his next job as he has been very busy. So hopefully I might get it back within the next few weeks.

I will let you all know what happens.

Cheers

Dave

[oldhippy]

I look forward to seeing the new photos. From your description I had assumed that the main spring is already fully wound down because of a missing link somewhere in the gear chain  (pallet fork perhaps as Bob suggested). But if I am misunderstanding, then hold onto the winding key when disconnecting anything and let the mainspring down slowly.

 

Just a thought ... perhaps the platform pinion is not engaging the main gear train. It is adjustable with a fairly fine fit and it could easily have become disconnected.

 

Here is a pic of a carriage clock that I recently fitted with a new platform. You can see it through the top window. The red colour is a reflection!

 

carriage clock.jpg

When it comes to broken parts its always best to have the original part repaired. The French carriage where a new platform has been fitted by doing so, this clock has decreased in value considerable and now has no real value at all.

[oldhippy]

The clock you are working on has many parts missing I noticed this days ago unless you have all the parts it might have sentimental value but that is all, so how you go about the repair doesn't really matter. clockboy is right in saying that the movement is swiss, but I disagree about it being a collector's item, a collector would avoid this because it is incomplete, also because the whole of the strike side is missing, I say strike but I suspect it would have been a ting tang as I see two places for what looks like where two hammers would have been. I would like to see all the movement before I comment further, and I will be able to give it a date.

[clockboy]

When it comes to broken parts its always best to have the original part repaired. The French carriage where a new platform has been fitted by doing so, this clock has decreased in value considerable and now has no real value at all.

I disagree because it is not the original part does not decrease it's value. Without the fix it is worth nothing and with many original parts it is not possible to use because they are just badly worn so a new part is the only answer.

[oldhippy]

I disagree because it is not the original part does not decrease it's value. Without the fix it is worth nothing and with many original parts it is not possible to use because they are just badly worn so a new part is the only answer.

Sorry but you are so wrong. I can assure you the value will decrease. So if the parts are so badly worn then new parts are made and made identical to the old, not just replaced with something that is so out of character as with the platform on that carriage clock. When I used to advise an antique shop and buy clocks for them anything that had new parts fitted and stood out like a sore thumb like that platform would hardly ever sell or would go for far less than the value. I'm just wondering what you would do if say a James McCabe bracket fusee came in and a part was worn as you probably aware James McCabe fetch 20,000 plus. I would and I have restored such clocks, if the part was made of brass I would firstly find the right sort of brass such as colour thickness mark out and carry out the necessary work so that in the end it would be identical to the original, a certificate of work would be handed to the customer explaining the work carried out along with the old part.      

[clockboy]

Sorry but you are so wrong. I can assure you the value will decrease. So if the parts are so badly worn then new parts are made and made identical to the old, not just replaced with something that is so out of character as with the platform on that carriage clock. When I used to advise an antique shop and buy clocks for them anything that had new parts fitted and stood out like a sore thumb like that platform would hardly ever sell or would go for far less than the value. I'm just wondering what you would do if say a James McCabe bracket fusee came in and a part was worn as you probably aware James McCabe fetch 20,000 plus. I would and I have restored such clocks, if the part was made of brass I would firstly find the right sort of brass such as colour thickness mark out and carry out the necessary work so that in the end it would be identical to the original, a certificate of work would be handed to the customer explaining the work carried out along with the old part.      

The point I was making is a non working clock is worth absolutely nothing apart from scrap metal value.  I agree with you that if a replacement part is made incorrectly i.e. sticks out "like a sore thumb" then you are correct.  But if a wheel or gear is badly worn then the only way the clock will run again is with a new part and this does not devalue the clock one bit it increases it's value because it is a running fully functional clock not a scrapper for parts.

There is a antique clock shop in the UK based in a town named West Malling and all of his clocks sold are of high value & most have had new parts made to fetch them back to their former glory & the guy sells well.

[oldhippy]

The point I was making is a non working clock is worth absolutely nothing apart from scrap metal value.  I agree with you that if a replacement part is made incorrectly i.e. sticks out "like a sore thumb" then you are correct.  But if a wheel or gear is badly worn then the only way the clock will run again is with a new part and this does not devalue the clock one bit it increases it's value because it is a running fully functional clock not a scrapper for parts.

There is a antique clock shop in the UK based in a town named West Malling and all of his clocks sold are of high value & most have had new parts made to fetch them back to their former glory & the guy sells well.

I agree. My point was that awful platform on that carriage clock. Repaired in that way its value has been lost, however if the original platform had been repaired it would keep its value and given time increase. I just hope the customer was consulted first and let's hope the old platform got handed back so at a later time it can be repaired back to its originality.  The clocks at West Malling will have been repaired/restored in such a way that you can't see the radiance.

[clockboy]

The problem with this clock is the escape wheel that has a broken pivot & unfortunately I do not have gear cutting facilities so gave Dave a contact who specialises in making wheels etc. But this will facilitate still using the original platform.

 

PS I have found with platform escapements a common fault is the balance staff so the original platform is still usable but not solely original.

[oldhippy]

The problem with this clock is the escape wheel that has a broken pivot & unfortunately I do not have gear cutting facilities so gave Dave a contact who specialises in making wheels etc. But this will facilitate still using the original platform.

 

PS I have found with platform escapements a common fault is the balance staff so the original platform is still usable but not solely original.

That's good news, its a pity that so much of the movement is missing.

[clockboy]

That's good news, its a pity that so much of the movement is missing.

 

I have had another look at Dave,s pics & I see what you mean. A strange one as I cannot see where it all would fit unless it uses the same spring for the driving train & striking side. I have looked on the net and have not found one to compare.

[oldhippy]

I have had another look at Dave,s pics & I see what you mean. A strange one as I cannot see where it all would fit unless it uses the same spring for the driving train & striking side. I have looked on the net and have not found one to compare.

I have sent Dave a message about my finding just in case he is unaware of his clock.

[clockboy]

OK a good idea.  Found this on the net.

http://jewelry.ha.com/itm/timepieces/clocks/miniature-shell-and-gilt-quarter-hour-repeating-clock-circa-1890/a/5137-58011.s

 

 

Looks like the movement

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Davey57]

Hi

Sorry I am not up to date with your posts and questions. As soon as I can I shall get some more pics uploaded for your perusal.  I can at least confirm that most of the parts for the chimes are missing, it appears that the chimes have heir own mainspring barrel, this is still in place but as you rightly point out the rest is gone. It is a shame about that but hopefully that will not interfere with the normal operation of the clock and it might at least run, however accurate that might be.

[oldhippy]

Hi

Sorry I am not up to date with your posts and questions. As soon as I can I shall get some more pics uploaded for your perusal.  I can at least confirm that most of the parts for the chimes are missing, it appears that the chimes have heir own mainspring barrel, this is still in place but as you rightly point out the rest is gone. It is a shame about that but hopefully that will not interfere with the normal operation of the clock and it might at least run, however accurate that might be.

Yes please I'd like to see more.

[oldhippy]

OK a good idea.  Found this on the net.

http://jewelry.ha.com/itm/timepieces/clocks/miniature-shell-and-gilt-quarter-hour-repeating-clock-circa-1890/a/5137-58011.s

 

 

Looks like the movement

 

Screen Shot 2015-07-09 at 20.25.19.png

Well done that's the fellow. Apart from the case and it being a repeater it's the same.