Jump to content

Elma Watch Cleaning Machine


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Halvis said:

Oh cr@p..

I have been handling this without any precautions at all.

Zero worries. If it was dangerous for final users or inhabitants of these materials we would be all dead now. Just as with Radium, it's the continued (as in many years) exposure (inhalation) in manufacturing environments that kills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Zero worries

You have to inform yourself well before you reassure people about asbestos.
Radium is absorbed into your bones and irradiate permanently the bone marrow so you run a lot of risk on leukemia.

Make sure you do not get these substances inside, and clean up all the radium dust well, the half-life is 1600 years!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Kraai said:

You have to inform yourself well before you reassure people about asbestos.
Radium is absorbed into your bones and irradiate permanently the bone marrow so you run a lot of risk on leukemia.

Make sure you do not get these substances inside, and clean up all the radium dust well, the half-life is 1600 years!

Make sure you understand the level of exposition needed for a real danger before spreading fear.

I can quote them here from scientific sources, but I hope that won't be necessary unless you insist.

BTW. In my country there have been hundreds or thousands of deaths already among extraction and processing workers, and still there are. It is not matter that anyone takes lightly, but information is key

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 29/12/2017 at 10:28 PM, Kraai said:

This looks like asbestos, could be dangerous by inhaling invisibly small fibers.
You can replace it with a silicone plate, or make it yourself from heat-resistant liquid silicone gasket for cars.

I agree with Kraai, it does look like asbestos, and given the age of the machine it probably is. What's more it appears to be in a friable state (at the edges) which means it has the potential to release fibres, so I would advise cautious handling.

Best thing to do with it is to put it into a ziplock bag, wipe around the area where you have been handling it with a damp cloth and put the cloth into the ziplock bag as well. Don't vacuum as this risks any renegade fibres becoming airbourne. Then dispose of the bag in an appropriate manner.

It is unlikely that this single exposure to asbestos (if that is what it is) will have any untoward consequences, however if anyone's interested I have posted some thoughts on the matter here;

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7779-asbestos/?tab=comments#comment-75815

As for a suitable replacement, try searching eBay (or other) for heat resistant mat or for silicone trivet. You can pick up a silicone trivet mat (intended for kitchen use) for very little, it's easy to cut to size, and from a very quick search it seems to be good for temperatures up to 240C. Funky colours too....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Kraai, it does look like asbestos, and given the age of the machine it probably is. What's more it appears to be in a friable state (at the edges) which means it has the potential to release fibres, so I would advise cautious handling.
Best thing to do with it is to put it into a ziplock bag, wipe around the area where you have been handling it with a damp cloth and put the cloth into the ziplock bag as well. Don't vacuum as this risks any renegade fibres becoming airbourne. Then dispose of the bag in an appropriate manner.
It is unlikely that this single exposure to asbestos (if that is what it is) will have any untoward consequences, however if anyone's interested I have posted some thoughts on the matter here;
https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/7779-asbestos/?tab=comments#comment-75815
As for a suitable replacement, try searching eBay (or other) for heat resistant mat or for silicone trivet. You can pick up a silicone trivet mat (intended for kitchen use) for very little, it's easy to cut to size, and from a very quick search it seems to be good for temperatures up to 240C. Funky colours too....
It has been months since I took the heater apart. I did it outdoors as the machine and especially the heater was unbelievably dirty. The asbestos plate was stuck to both the heating element and the heater base, so I probably released a lot of fibres taking them apart. The asbestos plate has been stored in a ziplock bag since, but I have taken it out a couple of times and handled it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Halvis said:

It has been months since I took the heater apart. I did it outdoors as the machine and especially the heater was unbelievably dirty. The asbestos plate was stuck to both the heating element and the heater base, so I probably released a lot of fibres taking them apart. The asbestos plate has been stored in a ziplock bag since, but I have taken it out a couple of times and handled it.

Given that you took it apart out in the open then unless you had the wind blowing directly into your face the likelihood of inhaling any fibres is negligible. I certainly wouldn't be losing any sleep over it. And it may not even be asbestos anyway.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi all

I currently use the trusted Elma Super Elite cleaning machine at home, but lately the speed control has been playing up. As in, it is no longer adjustable. The trouble is that it is now set at a rather high spinning speed, a bit more than I am comfortable with. The adjustment knob was working fine and allowing a good range of speed control only a few days ago.

This seems to be quite frequent on these machines judging by my initial googling on the subject.

However I could not find any detailed, conclusive solutions. 

I will have a look inside it at the weekend and see if there are any obvious issues, but I thought I would ask for advice here first.

Has anyone successfully replaced the rheostat (I believe this is what is used to control the basket rotational speed)? 

Has anyone "upgraded" to an electronic control? 

I would welcome any advice!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a couple links that might give you some help. You'll probably have to get the speed control out so we can look at it. Then more than likely some form of substitute may be needed.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/903-elma-master-watch-cleaning-machine-wiring-diagramuser-manual/

Then for this one he has four parts this goes to the first part you have to go the home page and scroll down to find the rest of the parts It also looks like his blog pictures are in the discussion above so everything may actually be above rather than going through his blog.

https://ssteelwatchrepairs.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/restoring-my-elma-super-elite-watch-parts-cleaning-machine/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you very much indeed John.

I went through this thread and I have learnt that there is probably nothing wrong with my machine!

My concern over the lack of adjustment was raised as I was looking at the basket spinning out of the fluid during the drying phase. I thought it looked too quick (i guess i never really paid attention before, i have not been using this machine for very long at all) - so I tried to adjust the speed, and found the speed control was not doing anything. As i kept testing speed control either outside the fluid or with no basket,  same result, no adjustment possible.

Reading through Micky's thread, if I understand correctly I believe this is normal and is due to the type of motor used (inductive motor, speed fixed by frequency i.e. Constant). The rheostat controls the power to the motor. The resistance of the rheostat is such that it provides a wide range of control when there is resistance from the fluid with the basket - i am quoting below RicardoG's post which explains it better than I can:

QUOTE

This kind of motor is called induction motor or inductive motor. The speed is a directly proportion to the frequency of the source that supply it. In this case, 50 Hz. The tension applied to it's terminals only give the power to turn. The number of the coils of the motor fix the speed and less coils more speed. Normally in this application the motor have two or four coils (two will turn faster than four). This kind of motor was used in vinil record players because as the source frequency is very stable, the speed of the turntable will be too. With a reostat in series with the motor supply you only change the power making the motor strong or weak. O course if you have some obstacles to fight like the fluid resistence of the cleanning liquid, reducing the power, indirectly you will reduce the speed. That's why when you turn it on outside the liquid the speed raise to the top limit. You can lower the speed outside the liquid using a reostat with high resistece value, and the motor will lower the speer against the atrit between the axis and the supports, that it is not perfect. However, if you do this, when the basket is inside the liquid, the reostat will only increase the speed at the end of his cursor, and the speed will have a fast icrease with a small turn of the reostat.

One more tip. The energy that is not used by the motor (in the lower speed) will be burned by the reostat. So, when you adjust for lower speeds, it is normal to the reostat to heat.

UNQUOTE

I have since tested my machine again, with a basket this time, and speed control is good when the basket is immersed in the fluid. So I do not get good control of the speed only when the basket is spinning outside the fluid, which I understand from the above must be normal?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 3/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, highquality said:

We use an old Greiner vcs something, which does the job perfectly.

But what do you guys do about the cleaning solution smell? Even though we use an extra room with the windows open, the elma wf pro and suprol solution still make me dizzy.

Anybody got any tips?

Sorry for piggybacking your thread

Taking up an old thread. Bought some Elma suprol and i can't stand the smell of it.  The whole room smells.   I can't say i recommend it. Wonder if it's okay to clean the car with? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rogart63 said:

Taking up an old thread. Bought some Elma suprol and i can't stand the smell of it.  The whole room smells.   I can't say i recommend it. Wonder if it's okay to clean the car with? 

So to ride alone for the next year? Hihi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I have just found this on ebay. I have nothing to do with the sale.

Here is an opportunity to buy a good auto-cleaning machine. You need to live in the UK as it collection only.  Take a look at the video.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watchmakers-L-R-Tempo-400-Automatics-Watch-Parts-Cleaning-Machine/302770626852?hash=item467e892124:g:AQAAAOSwnTpbIXmo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I have just found this on ebay. I have nothing to do with the sale.

 

Here is an opportunity to buy a good auto-cleaning machine. You need to live in the UK as it collection only.  Take a look at the video.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Watchmakers-L-R-Tempo-400-Automatics-Watch-Parts-Cleaning-Machine/302770626852?hash=item467e892124:g:AQAAAOSwnTpbIXmo

Hi oldhippy, Nice machine for a pro repair shop. I don`t do much and only for people I know and recommendations. I am still on a U/S cleaner and a brush or two with careful use of Acetone and Naphtha etc. Cheap like my customers!! They have mainly old up market watches but will not pay high prices for repairs although some are very valuable. Well, thank you for your recent help, I`m obliged. Regards, Old Jobber Fixer (if you`re lucky) Mike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hello,
I have recently bought an older ELMA watch cleaning machine which has a mounting prepared for the mesh basket module. Looking at Cousins or similar shops (even ebay), the brand new 64mm baskets+cage is quite expensive add-on, considering the bargain price of £128 for the whole machine.

Now, is there a chance someone here has a spare basket? or do you think it is worth to wait and scan ebay for any old basket rather than buying the ~£100 new one?

Thank you for any advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are many machines out there missing baskets, and most folks like to have at least a couple of sets, so doubtful someone would want to part with them. Ebay will show some eventually. They've often lived a hard life but Lititz in the U.S. sells plastic baskets to fit the standard frame for a very good price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

They've often lived a hard life but Lititz in the U.S. sells plastic baskets to fit the standard frame for a very good price

Sorry I am not from the US, what is Lititz? COuld you please post a link? Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

My great Aunt died a couple years back. She had had been married to a man that owned a jewelry store back in the early 80's. In her estate was a number of great treasures and even literal gems.  After the estate sale not much was left, but I did end up with what Ive deduced to be a Vintage Elma watch parts cleaner.  And that is about as much as I have been able to figure out. None of the searches I've performed on the internet have returned with the exact model that I have. Not even an image... Similar , yes. The same . no. ..

I don't have a clue as to how to operate any watch parts cleaner, much less one with minimal text (german) to clue one in on function of switches and dials. So, I can't verify it is in working order. I did notice that the plug had a short in it so I replaced that, Plugged it in and a light above the switch lights up after being flipped, but again end of my road of investigation... So basically, I would really appreciate any information at all about this machine

IMG_1491.JPG

IMG_1494.JPG

IMG_1488.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You turn it on by the switch. The big dial in the centre you set for minutes you want it to spin in each jar, if working properly when the time is up a bell should ring. You lift the centre rod up in the middle that’s attached to the basket and lift it to spin off.  Release the handle on the main shaft and lift, move the basket to the next jar and repeat. You can change the time to however many minutes you want. I cannot remember if the heater warms up automatically or if it needs to be switched on.

 

 

Here is Marks video.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtQhRKPgjY4

  Here is a photo of what you have.  

ELMA Super Elite Cleaning Machine Img 01.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Have to agree with you. Will not do another. Did not enjoy the time spent. However, it was worth it to know that I understood how to disassemble, look for defects, repair and then assemble. Timegrapher? No facility to alter anything other than the stud. Everything is metal to metal.
    • Couple of things H. There surely seems to be a reoccurring fluctuation pattern  of somewhere around every 5 minutes. More noticable with your crown left trace having a large peak gradually reducing to 2 small peaks and troughs then back up to another large peak. Nev posted a download link to a book by Harold Kelly not so long back that i started to read while i was away. There was a good section on wheel and pinion ratios, rotation periods of wheels of different beat frequencies that's worth a read. Then something that bugs me comparing the amplitude and timing rate changes with your dial up trace which i chose to avoid wheel imbalances . The amplitude fluctuates by an extreme of 30 ° and the rate fluctuates by an extreme of 21 seconds as per your reading. In normal circumstances a movement dropping its power over the course of the mainspring unwinding, a hairspring acting isochronical will maintain its rate almost to the end of the power reserve. Similarly power wound into a movement increasing its amplitude from 265° to 295° a hairspring again acting isochronical will again maintain its rate aside from a brief few moments until it settles into it's rate. From that it seems to me that because the amplitude difference isn't big enough to affect a rate change then the amplitude fluctuation cause is not coming from anywhere but from the balance. So its whatever is causing the rate to change increase and decrease within the balance is also slowing and speeding up the hairspring swings. I'm not quite sure if I've just gone around in circles with that, it made sense to me when i started  😅 We did have a discussion a while back when i asked if rate could come from that point as well as from the regulator pins. This area can be electro stiffened in high grade hs i remember was the answer. I remember that over Ross's issue with balance endshake.
    • somewhere in the universe although as I'm answering this I remembered which discussion group. Somebody had a similar question loss basically expanded it to the watch would totally disintegrate in my think like 30 years. I'd have to go back and find the original discussion if I can the person seem to think that they hairspring would disintegrate like you describe and just metal on metal wearing out the entire watch. Except of course we all work on watches over 30 years and they obviously do not disintegrate. Plus somebody came along and explained why hairsprings do not have the same issues as mainsprings. Although hairsprings do end up with watchmakers insisting on bending and playing with them and torturing them etc. and that obviously is not good for the metal at all. one of the problems that you're having here it is what is the purpose of the test that started this discussion? Let me go and snip out the original image as you can see from images above this watch is horrible. Or is it? What is the purpose of the images up above in other words what exactly would use this test for? The real purpose this test is show the effect of amplitude on timekeeping. Or specifically you're looking for mechanical issues that are causing fluctuations in amplitude which unfortunately shows up  with timekeeping. or basically everything affects timekeeping but amplitude is affected by the mechanical characteristics of the watch from the mainspring to the balance wheel and unfortunately as it's a mechanical watch your always going to have power fluctuations. so how do we rule out unacceptable fluctuations versus the natural characteristic of the watch? Usually if you can find a repeating pattern you can narrow it down to the offending components for instance I'm attaching a PDF. on the second page of the PDF it talks about 21st-century equipment versus paper tape timing machines. Then they give an example of timing problems solely caused by a faulty component. although off you have a user's manual for a paper tape machine it does explain that you can find faulty components by looking at the variations on your paper tape seeing how often they repeat and do the same thing without the fancy software. Even though it was claimed that you couldn't do that in other words you couldn't find a pattern? One of the problems that comes up with modern LCD-based timing machines versus software is limited screen size. In other words it makes it very hard to look for patterns you'll see variations in numbers but it's hard to tell what's going on which is why the display above is really nice to see if there is a problem. for instance here's a paper printout from a witschi timing machine it does look distorted because I changed the speed at which the image would move across the screen. In other words I was trying to figure out a way to extend the screen to being much longer as I was looking for a pattern as you can see there doesn't appear to be a pattern at all so basically we end up with a watch that I cannot time at all they cannot really figure out what the problem is and I actually cannot find a pattern even begin the figure out where the problem might be. Plus I agreed to service this watch for free as I was going to use it for the purposes of a lecture. In other words it's a nice railroad grade pocket watch and I wanted to show before how horrible amplitude is and how wonderful it looks after serviced and after servicing it looked exactly the same still horrible. Then I used software for a clock timing machine and came up with this interesting image one a minor problems we have with time plots and  how they look is that they all do things a little bit differently. So this was occurring approximately every five minutes. Then we need another chart then I replaced something in the watch and we now get this one of the things that I was always bothered with was if I had put the hands on after servicing would the watch have Time? Because the pattern was repeating the watch would average that out may  it would have Time. Oh and what did I change somebody had swapped the mainspring barrel for something different were getting a binding between the mainspring in the center wheel pinion. so the problem you're having is what exactly is the problem? the purpose of the test image is to look for mechanical problems causing amplitude problems. Because it's a mechanical watch your always going to have variations so are the variations in this watch abnormal or normal for this watch? Once we eliminate the mechanical issues beyond it's a mechanical watch then you can work on timing issues. for timing issues I recommend going back to the normal display that were used to and make sure you have your averaging times set correctly. In other words while the graphical display is basically real time years of the numbers are averaged over time. Anywhere from 20 to 40 seconds depending upon whose specs you're looking at. So basically they will average out the problems were seeing on this time plot.   one of my amusements with students that go to the same school is that you have different instructors. So this gives you different experiences like what exactly is tight anyway as I don't remember any thing like this? Then did you know that Rolex at least in Geneva as I visited their service center replace all the screws in the watch every time they service the watch. then why did they do that because they use power screwdrivers and tighten those things down as tight as you can get them which has a problem. How many times can you tighten screw down really tight before the hints break off. So they replace the screws every single time. So personally I don't think they have to be so tight that you're in danger snapping head off that's too tight in my opinion. but the screws definitely shouldn't be falling out either which I've occasionally see and where people just don't tighten their screws tight enough.   Horologica Times -- May 2004 From the Workshop witschi time plot.pdf
    • I guess it is a possibility, but the train wheel bridge was pressed down all the way so I'm not so sure. Then again, the screws weren't tightened at all (imagine being screwed down all the way but using a piece of Rodico instead of a screwdriver). Anyway, the movement is now fully stripped so we'll have to see once I've assembled it again. BTW I found the post where @nickelsilver wrote about tightening screws: As he writes: "In school, if your screws aren't tight, like you think they might snap, you get your movement tossed in the sawdust box!" I'm really curious to know why it is so important to tighten the screws that hard. I usually stop when it feels like there is no chance the screw can start to unscrew itself. Also, screwing down that hard requires perfectly dressed and perfectly sized screwdrivers to avoid slippage and/or damaging the screw slot.
    • This place has them, cheaper than I saw on ebay and they appear to be a legitimate supplier: https://maddisonsofdurham.co.uk/watch-parts/capacitors/seiko-batteries-capacitors/seiko-capacitor-kinetic-30235mz-tc920s-5m42-5m22-5m23-battery-3023-5mz-3023-5my/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw7-SvBhB6EiwAwYdCASmviGb9G2ZGW3CtcUZBkNgglcgfPKoqnpOzrzruiPtm69f6DX7UGhoCKl4QAvD_BwE There is also a note at the bottom of the page about them being a newer type, with a slightly different part number.  
×
×
  • Create New...