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What the hell am I doing wrong


Paul80

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Hi all.

So still quite new at this watch repair malarky and tried to stick to similar movements whilst I learn what I am doing, over the months I have bought, stripped, cleaned and reassembled a few Seiko's and Citizen watches as with quite a high success rate especially given how new I am at it, which boosted my confidence no end, but one thing is really putting a dent in my confidence, all the Seiko watches have been either 7009A or 6309, the latter have been fine but with the 7009A, out of the 5 I got working The same thing has happened to 4 of them and that is after working fine for 4 to 6 weeks they suddenly just stop and when I check they have all stopped for the same reason and that is the impulse jewel has fallen out of the balance.  The others (touching wood have been fine) it's just the 7009A's that this is happening to.

Anyone got any idea as to what the hell is going on here.

I know not the let IPA anywhere near the balance and used Naphtha for cleaning the first couple, then went over to Renata. And they have not been in the Ultrasonic cleaner either. The only thing I can think of is as these watches and movements came from eBay so I don't know what any previous owner had done to them, although none of them looked like they had ever been cleaned before so I am not even sure I can blame the past owners and it's driving me nuts.

Today's one I did manage to find the jewel and under the microscope managed to get the jewel back in with drop of shellac to hold it in place, (fingers crossed) all the others I lost to the carpet monster.

Anyone got any clues as to what's going on here.

Thanks for any help with this

 

Edited by Paul80
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Damn that carpet monster and his co-villain the spring aether!

I strongly empathize on many levels. Best guess is something about your cleaning methodology. Chemistry, time, agitation, phase of the moon... I have not had that issue (not many Seikos though). I use L&R fine watch cleaning solution (or whatever it's called), the associated rinse, and it all goes through the ultrasonic for a total of 15 minutes (5 in each wash, rinse 1, and rinse 2). Worst I can report from that approach is that I've had some dial screws vibrate out and go unnoticed for a while. Early on, I stripped the nickel off a plate when I left it in the ultrasonic for too long (I had no idea at the time how long was too long or not long enough). 

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Did you know that watch jewel fluoresce under UV light? I learnt that here on WRT.

You can try looking for your missing jewels with a UV torch and the room lights turned off. I wished I knew that a couple of years ago when I lost a pallet jewel.

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Thanks for the replies

For cleaning as said the first couple were cleaned in Naphtha which is Shellac safe the rest in Renata which again is Shellac safe. I put them in a small pot of the solution the use my are puffer the agitate the solution, they are in the solution for less than a minute. So can't see why my cleaning is behind the issue.

Thanks for the tip on UV Hector, will remember that the next time I loose a jewel.

Paul

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I think it is just bad luck. I never ever put the balance complete in the cleaning machine. If you have been following me you will know  always used Ronsonol lighter fluid. I can't see anything wrong in what you have said you are doing. Carpet is not good as a floor covering when you are watch repairing. 

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No idea what's happening, never seen that problem. It takes a while for IPA to dissolve shellac. I tried an old pallet in the ultrasonic for 3 mins with no noticeable loss. I clean using Elma WF Pro in the ultrasonic for 3-5 mins, then rinse in IPA for about 1 min (in the ultrasonic) - never had any problems,  

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4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

When you say ultrasonic do you mean an ultrasonic watch cleaning machine?

No. Just a small "jewellery cleaning" ultrasonic 0.5L/30W. I imagine not as powerful as a watch cleaning ultrasonic?

 

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23 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

There not for cleaning watch parts they are too aggressive, they can and will damage the movement. 

Have a look at this.

Not convinced. He's using an ultra thin piece of aluminium - not relevant for most watch parts.

I've never read any articles suggesting ultrasonics damage parts. I've been using them for years and I've never seen any damage: I examine parts under the microscope after cleaning, so I would have expected to have seen some pitting/lost plating etc.  You can get damage from parts rattling against each other, but I put small parts in mesh containers (in glass beakers suspended in water) and keep larger components apart so that doesn't happen.

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Thinking aloud here:
So, a batch of five 7009A movements. All from the same vendor? Or same location?  If so, could we presume they all underwent similar circumstances; maybe stored in an extreme of heat or cold, humidity or dryness, tinkered with by the same person, the same way?  Any of those things before coming to you may be possible. If from different vendors, then maybe a manufacturing defect at the location where they were all made - and perhaps you managed to get some of those that were made when that was occurring?

So all were cleaned first in naphtha, then in Renata.  No IPA. No ultrasonic. Then, after running 4 to 6 weeks, four out of those five 7009A movements lose their impulse jewel.  But this has not happened to one of them?  And it has not happened to the 6309s? Was there anything else in the cleaning process which you did differently for the 7009As which you did not do for the 6309s?

Is anyone else thinking this could be either a manufacturing defect, or a result of these movements enduring some, as yet, unknown circumstance to which the impulse jewels were particularly vulnerable, happening before they were purchased?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but from what is written so far, it doesn't sound like a result of anything Paul80 did.  I would look over that last good balance on the 7009A that remained intact, and see how it compares to the ones that lost jewels.  The cleaning agents you used do not affect shellac, so there should be *some* trace (I would think) of shellac left on the roller tables of those that lost their jewel, if that's how they are held in.  If no trace of any shellac whatsoever - why?  Friction fit?  Socket slightly too large?  There may be other clues, there may be nothing.  Who knows?  I am not as familiar with the 7009A as I would like to be, so I can only speculate here and there.  But I'd compare and look for clues.

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3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I've never read any articles suggesting ultrasonics damage parts. I've been using them for years and I've never seen any damage: I examine parts under the microscope after cleaning, so I would have expected to have seen some pitting/lost plating etc.

It can totally happen. I've done it. Stripped the nickel plating right off the main and bridge plates of a '40s Certina movement. It was in there for much longer than should have been though. If you'd like, it's still in my "art" tray, and I can probably dig it out and get some photos.

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3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Not convinced. He's using an ultra thin piece of aluminium - not relevant for most watch parts.

I've never read any articles suggesting ultrasonics damage parts. I've been using them for years and I've never seen any damage: I examine parts under the microscope after cleaning, so I would have expected to have seen some pitting/lost plating etc.  You can get damage from parts rattling against each other, but I put small parts in mesh containers (in glass beakers suspended in water) and keep larger components apart so that doesn't happen.

As I understand it the Chronoglide video is saying the larger (well, for a watchmaker) ultrasonics are too powerful. Ultrasonics have been used in watch cleaning machines for at least 60 years though. But that guy also uses automatic cleaning machines that don't have ultrasonic, maybe he's justifying that position (I have the same Greiner ACS 900 he has, and it came to me without ultrasonic. It was 2000 bucks to add the driver board and tank, and I'm very happy to have done it...). I do clean parts in a larger Elma quite often, but mostly components I've made for customers. I have to say I've never had a problem with it damaging anything.

 

I and everyone I know cleans the balance in the cleaning machine, with ultrasonic. I have never had an issue with roller jewels coming out, even when I used a machine that had warm isopropyl alcohol as a rinse. I think Karl's theory of a manufacturing defect is probably correct.

 

Spectre- how long were the parts in the cleaner? I remember someone left a movement in some L&R 111A over the weekend at school once and the plating was destroyed. On that note, with my cleaning machine I can set the time in each bath; with the ultrasonic I find that 5 or 6 minutes is plenty. I think with the non-ultrasonic machines folks tend to do 10-15 minutes, which, if you think about it, might cause more damage than the supposedly damaging ultrasonics, haha.

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Way too long. It was probably the first movement I put through the cleaner when I first got it. I had no idea how long, so I took a shot in the dark at 30 minutes per cycle (wash, rinse 1, rinse 2). So an hour and a half all told. WAY too long. Lesson learned. 404 FTW (even though technically, that wasn't a 404 watch and was one I bought back in college when I first got into watches and never wore because it was too small and didn't run well).

As a point of comparison, however, I wear a device at night to prevent teeth clenching. When I get my teeth cleaned, I'm supposed to bring it in and they'll clean it. I skipped my annual cleaning the past few times due to the pandemic. I'm a really good brusher/flosser, @HectorLooi would be proud assuming I remember correctly that he's a dentist, otherwise he'll just be confused. Anyway, I called to check in on how they cleaned it, and all they do is drop it in an ultrasonic with some mouthwash for 30 minutes. I would have thought the softer plastic would have about disappeared given what it did to the nickel plating, but apparently not. I cleaned it myself as directed, and it worked just fine.

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Thanks again for all the replies.

To try to answer some of the questions raised.

All the movements came from different sellers, and from different parts of the world, from Spain, the Netherlands and even India (I now know to not buy from India again 😉 )

I no longer have most of the balances but don't remember seeing any shellac in or around the hole and with the one I managed to refit the jewel there was no visible sign of any shellac left either.

I will check on the next balance I get to see if any is visible before I fit it. Still got 4 waiting for replacements after they lost their impulse jewels.

Just begrudge paying £15 for used Balance when I can get a complete movement for sometimes as low as £10.

Trouble is I end up going down the rabbit hole of buying a movement for spares, then having to buy another to fix the one I took the part from, and so it goes on and on.

Thanks again.

Paul

 

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6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

As I understand it the Chronoglide video is saying the larger (well, for a watchmaker) ultrasonics are too powerful. Ultrasonics have been used in watch cleaning machines for at least 60 years though. But that guy also uses automatic cleaning machines that don't have ultrasonic,

actually if you watch his video carefully makes a much more bold statement.. At about 15 minutes 45 seconds in  he shows a standard test for ultrasonic machines which is punching holes in aluminum foil very very thin aluminum foil.. Based on that test he's concluded that all ultrasonic machines are evil and bad for cleaning delicate watch parts..

But then we have this snipped out an amusing image from the company that makes the machine that destroys watch parts. notice they have a really amusing sense a humor on their website a machine that's capable of ripping apart watch parts is supposed to not cause damage how the heck can that be?

what becomes interesting with this is I've seen the foil test before it is a standard test  so it's not like he discovered something new here. As far as ultrasonic and watch cleaning machines  I bet you're right now at this second somebody is cleaning a watch with ultrasonic energy all day long as people all across the planet cleaning watches and  if it was as destructive as he said don't you think we would've known about it? Although on this group one person claim that ultrasonic machines will destroy balance pivots but I've only heard of that here? So for having a wholesale slaughter of watches and ultrasonic machines why don't we know about it? Wire the watch companies still recommending ultrasonic cleaning wire companies still making ultrasonic watch cleaning machines?

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Spectre- how long were the parts in the cleaner? I remember someone left a movement in some L&R 111A over the weekend at school once and the plating was destroyed. On that note, with my cleaning machine I can set the time in each bath; with the ultrasonic I find that 5 or 6 minutes is plent

somewhere in the group we've had this discussion before. I remember as a student in school the cleaning machine ultrasonic of course had a timer 10 minutes.  I'm not sure if we were actually told how long the set the timer but I discovered the solution turns a really pretty blue-collar if you go the maximum time with brass plates and I had beautiful frosted pocket watch plates.  If you start reading the instructions for the cleaning solutions especially those  with ammonia. Ammonia is really good for cleaning and really good for taking tarnish off but it's also really good for taking the copper out and turning the solution a beautiful blue color or sometimes blue-green. So typically  if you clean and definitely clean without heat heat is not recommended for about  four to? I remember being in school in Switzerland the cleaning machine was taped at four minutes all day long students were cleaning watches and ultrasonic machine none of the pivots ever fell off and the watches looked fine other than the students abusing them. So I usually try to go for 4 to 5 minutes. Because the longer it stays in their once it goes beyond taking the tarnish off it starts dissolving the cleaning fluid as far as I'm concerned is more destructive than the ultrasonic machine.

But it does bring up an interesting problem that a standard test of using aluminum foil that's been around forever one watchmaker somewhere in the planet concludes based on this test it all ultrasonic machines are bad for cleaning watch parts. Or maybe ultrasonic machines are fine for solid things like watch parts just bad for aluminum foil thin aluminum foil.

Then as far as cleaning balance wheels delicate hairsprings in the ultrasonic machining I've never had a problem with that.

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

I no longer have most of the balances but don't remember seeing any shellac in or around the hole and with the one I managed to refit the jewel there was no visible sign of any shellac left either.

iit's possible that companies mass-producing watches  may actually glue their ruler jewels in.. They easily have the machinery to do that and have it very precise and everyone exactly the same. It is no guarantee and modern watchmaking that they're going to use shall.  I've even seen some watch companies that I'm pretty sure the roller jewel is held in my friction only because I've never seen shellac.

ultrasonic tanks evil and bad.JPG

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 Collets are laser welded to the staff of some Seiko 7009 balance completes,  such balance completes are not meant to be rebuildable when a pivot breaks or hairspring gets ruined they practically are worthless, their roller table with impulse jewel intact, fits right on your balance completes. You need a part thats useless to others.

Impulse jewel of caliber 6309 is set on balance spokes, so no roller table to replace.

Regs

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I'm a really good brusher/flosser, @HectorLooi would be proud assuming I remember correctly that he's a dentist, otherwise he'll just be confused.

Bravo! Good for you.

Medical experts now blame oral bacteria for a plethora of diseases, like heart disease, kidney diseases, diabetes, stroke, pancreatic cancer,  etc.

Every bit of effort to reduce the amount of bad bacteria in the mouth adds years to your lifespan. But don't go crazy thinking you can kill all the bactera with mouthwash, because mouthwash kills the good bacteria along with the bad.

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Well said JohnR725  I have used both conventional and Ultra sonic and never destroyed anything (yet). I believe the foil test was originaly used to prove the functionality of the transducer in operation. If holes were produced in the foil it was ok  if not it was non functional. The only other way is to look for the ripples.  Any machine used for cleaning if abused or the cleaning fluid mixed to the incorrect strength will cause problems, again use common sense is the watch word and read and follow the instructructions.  READ THE MANUAL.

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Don't forget with most of these Ultrasonic tooth brushes, they are actually just Sonic not ultrasonic as in the Philips Sonicare Range it's Sonicare not UltraSinicare, Ultrasonic would soon have you fillings and crowns dropping out I suspect.

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On 10/1/2021 at 2:11 PM, Paul80 said:

impulse jewel has fallen out of the balance

out of curiosity regarding Seiko and impulse jewels being abducted by aliens I consulted with a friend. When he retired he went home and is having fun working on his Seiko watches. What I find interesting is the shop that he worked in would've seen a heck of a lot of Rolex watches and high grade watches and never typically saw Seiko watches. So now he's having fun with Seiko so I figured he would have a clue if there was a roller jewel issue. his answer was to the best of his recollection he has never had a roller jewel issue on a Seiko. But he has occasionally seen loose pallet jewels.

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