Sourcing hairspring

[Nucejoe]

  I need to source aprox 1000 pieces of hairsprings to vibrate with vintage Oris 671Kif  balance and other calibers of this family,  I know hairspring of same strength were used for most vintage in-house Oris movements. but I can't tell what material/alloy Oris 671kif  hairspring is made from. 

Have seen some members here on forum identify alloys as though one is naturally born with such ability to know alloys. not me though, I don't have the slightest idea how you go about identifying alloys , just by looking or what tests to conduct to reach any conclusion.

Britishprecisionsprings.co.UK list hairsprings they have in stock, which typically are made of 

-Berrylium Copper,          

-Phosphore bronze         

-Cadmium Copper

-Stainless steel

-Chronospan.

-Nispan 

-Kutherm.

No Nivarox which I see written on old packages hairsprings came in.

So my questions are

1-What alloy do I need? 

2-I hope someone here know of a hairspring producer besides above named one.

Apperciate any help.

Regs

 

 

 

[nickelsilver]

NiSpan C is the generic name for Elinvar Extra, which is a fantastic hairspring material. It's more magnetic than Nivarox, but less than steel. It looks like British precision springs has some springs in the range that might work with your Oris that are NiSpan C.

 

Otherwise at that quantity you can talk directly to Nivarox, or try www.atokalpa.ch, www.atlasmicrotech.ch, and www.precision-engineering.ch. Even at 1000 pcs, you will probably shocked at the price, definitely more expensive than the British company! Like 5-10x more.

 

Are you planning on vibrating these yourself? You will need collets and studs, which the traditional type are hard to get now. The above Swiss companies can collet them with modern collets, at an extra expense of course.

[Nucejoe]

 Hi Master Nickelsilver,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Yes I personally vibrate them. have done hundereds. 

 

 Britishprecisionsprings co, lists;     

       Nispan C   torque=.20300 gm/cm/ 100°     and 

       Nispan C   torque =.19800 gm/cm/100°   .  In compatible range.  Both are listed as springs only, I will gladly pay that extra charge to have them colleted as well.  

Thousand pieces comes to only ten packages of 10.   Didn't think its worth to be considered by manufactureres.

 Chinese companies seem eager to sell something once they spotted someone with cash, but knowlegewise seem to only know the item they have for sale, nevertheless, I will contact the companies you mention.

Appreciate your help, thanks.

Regs 

Joe

 

[nickelsilver]

9 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Thousand pieces comes to only ten packages of 10.   Didn't think its worth to be considered by manufactureres.

 

 

Multiply by 10 one more time haha.

[praezis]

20 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Nispan C   torque=.20300 gm/cm/ 100° 

A very strange kind of unit! Some time ago I asked them for a method to convert to CGS, but no reply.
I wonder if there is anyone left who has more knowledge about their springs than the price 

Frank

 

[jdm]

31 minutes ago, praezis said:

A very strange kind of unit!

I'm no expert but that doesn't seem very strange to me.  k (torsion spring constant) as described https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_spring#Torsional_harmonic_oscillators

Since Newtons and meters are too big units for such a small force, they use g and cm. Radians are used only in science only, so a conventional, fixed angle is given instead. There is probably equipment around which can measure that "almost easily".

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Multiply by 10 one more time haha.

Right, I have use for as many pieces though.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

A very strange kind of unit! Some time ago I asked them for a method to convert to CGS, but no reply.
I wonder if there is anyone left who has more knowledge about their springs than the price 

Frank

 

This is in CGS.

CGS stands for Centimeter, Gram, Seconds.   

Another popular system of metric units is MKS , MKS  stands for Meter, kilogram, Seconds.

Three dimensions of  Distance, Mass and Time, thought to be all there is in newtonian physics.

Regs 

 

 

 

[praezis]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

I'm no expert but that doesn't seem very strange to me.  k (torsion spring constant) as described https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_spring#Torsional_harmonic_oscillators

Since Newtons and meters are too big units for such a small force, they use g and cm. Radians are used only in science only, so a conventional, fixed angle is given instead. There is probably equipment around which can measure that "almost easily".

gm = g ?? That would be a unit of mass, not of force. And what shall "g/cm" be?

Frank

[jdm]

40 minutes ago, praezis said:

gm = g ?? That would be a unit of mass, not of force. And what shall "g/cm" be?

Gram force centimeters, an unit of momentum of torque

https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/en-US/torque/12-9/gram-force centimeter-kilogram-force centimeter/

[Nucejoe]

29 minutes ago, praezis said:

gm = g ?? That would be a unit of mass, not of force. And what shall "g/cm" be?

Frank

The unit of force is derived from the three basic dimentions and its commonly expressed in kilogram force.  kgf

One kilogram force is the weight of one kilogram mass on planet earth, actualy in Paris, same mass is weightless in space, weighs less on moon and about a thousand tons on Sun. one kilogram mass is the same regardless of its location in the universe. We can correctly say one kilogram force.

Regs 

Joe

 

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

One kilogram force is the weight of one kilogram mass on planet earth, actualy in Paris, same mass is weightless in space, weighs less on moon and about a thousand tons on Sun. 

And so Galileo began dropping items from the Pisa tower to prove his point, then Newton introduced the (earth) gravitational constant, then etc, etc, after 3,000 years of science and notation changes we the peasants are left depending on Google while some government keep legal measuring in inches, nails, short medium and long tons. 

[praezis]

kilogram force? Really funny, fits inches, feet, pound, short ton and other strange units.
Agreed, I use "grams" as a weight unit, too, when buying apples on the market. But regarding physics and science we should be clear and use the correct units and terms.

21 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

This is in CGS.

CGS stands for Centimeter, Gram, Seconds.   

I am not talking of these units, Joe. I am talking of the "CGS number" that fully describes a hairspring - and is used since 80 years for this purpose. A serious vendor will supply these CGS with his springs - the above vendor does not. What he calls "Torque" (gm/cm/100deg) is anything but a torque.

Anyone who is working with hairsprings (Joe ) should be familiar with the term CGS.
You can immediately determine what hairspring you need for a given balance wheel and beatrate when using CGS numbers.

What the hell is this CGS now?
In short: it is the needed torque to turn a hairspring by 57 deg (57deg equals rad=1) when it has a diameter of 1 cm. 
Its unit is "dyn * cm^3"

Frank

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by praezis

[jdm]

5 hours ago, praezis said:

What he calls "Torque" (gm/cm/100deg) is anything but a torque.

Sorry to disagree, but indeed is a measure of torque, expressed with only the angular component being different from the definition you have written before. That is, the torque (in grams force) needed to turn a hairspring by 100 deg. at the diameter of 1cm.

 

5 hours ago, praezis said:

Anyone who is working with hairsprings (Joe ) should be familiar with the term CGS.

Joe is correct. CGS is an units system which predates MKS and SI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centimetre–gram–second_system_of_units

 

5 hours ago, praezis said:

Its unit is "dyn * cm^3"

There you have the dyne defined in the CGS system in the same Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centimetre–gram–second_system_of_units#Definitions_and_conversion_factors_of_CGS_units_in_mechanics

When the hairspring industry writes CGS they are simply saying which units system is being used to indicate the value of the torsion spring constant for a particular hairspring. But there are no seconds in a torsion spring constant.

[dadistic]

If I get really ambitious I may attempt to do a conversion, which should settle the issue. I haven't done any calculating for a very long time, and my arithmetic has always been suspect :-), but maybe I'll try it as a brain exercise.

If somebody beats me too it, great!

And show your work

Cheers! 

[clockboy]

This UK based company are a great resource for hairsprings. HOWEVER the majority of springs supplied are without a collet so you will need the skill to pin up a hairspring. Also I do not understand their sizing system.Also those that do come with a collet take for ever to be delivered. The last time I used them it was three months and that was after several nagging emails from myself. 
 

http://www.britishprecisionsprings.co.uk/html/stock_spring_list.html

[Nucejoe]

1 minute ago, clockboy said:

This UK based company are a great resource for hairsprings. HOWEVER the majority of springs supplied are without a collet so you will need the skill to pin up a hairspring. Also I do not understand their sizing system.Also those that do come with a collet take for ever to be delivered. The last time I used them it was three months and that was after several nagging emails from myself. 
 

http://www.britishprecisionsprings.co.uk/html/stock_spring_list.html

Yes I remember you saying  they are very slow. 

Regs

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, praezis said:

Anyone who is working with hairsprings (Joe ) should be familiar with the term CGS.
You can immediately determine what hairspring you need for a given balance wheel and beatrate when using CGS numbers.

So will you help me now, what spring do I need for Oris 677 kif balances?  what strength and material should I buy.

4 hours ago, praezis said:

In short: it is the needed torque to turn a hairspring by 57 deg (57deg equals rad=1) when it has a diameter of 1 cm. 
 

Right, the official name for force in CGS system is dyne. 

I need a spring that turns 57 degrees when one dyne is exerted to it at radius of one cm.

Britishprecisionspring co UK expresses strength in cm/ gm/100° 

100 degrees or 57 its optional.

Regs

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dadistic]

@Nucejoe, I notice that you have been on this quest for some time. You may have to work your way to an answer, by experimentation.

Start with the balance diameter, and from the attached charts get something that is "close", so that you are starting with a known value.  Vibrate this spring, get the system oscillating correctly, measure the radius of this spring, and then use the following formula to figure the correct CGS number. 

K=K1(R/R1)^2 where K1 is the estimated CGS, R1 is the radius of the estimated spring, R is the measured radius, and K is the required CGS. I've swiped this answer from an NAWCC post, but the procedure comes from "Watch Adjusting" by H. Jendritzki. My copy of Jendritzki is in storage, along with everything else.  I haven't tried this yet, as I don't have a hairspring vibrator, but I believe you said you do. 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by dadistic
spelling

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

So will you help me now, what spring do I need for Oris 677 kif balances?

Oris 671 or 677? For the first check

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Balance-complete-ORIS-671-672-680-681-670-Roskopf-s-vis-bilanciere-completo-721/165029680135

The latter should use an available 7750 balance.

 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

I need a spring that turns 57 degrees when one dyne is exerted to it at radius of one cm.

Maybe diameter not radius?

 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Britishprecisionspring co UK expresses strength in cm/ gm/100° 

100 degrees or 57 its optional.

Since a radian is about 57 degrees, to convert from CGS to "torque at 100 deg" the proportion is : 1 / 57 = x / 100, that is multiply for 1.75, according to table posted by dadaistic for an 8 3/4"' that yelds a "british" value of 0.35 and up.

I understand that dealing with different units can be irritating. But when running a business there is nothing worse than irritating an opinionated chief engineer, so better to second him and let others figure out.

[Nucejoe]

7 minutes ago, dadistic said:

@Nucejoe,  I haven't tried this yet, as I don't have a hairspring vibrator, but I believe you said you do. 

Thank you for your response and the good aproach you suggest, helpful indeed.

 I don't have a hairspring vibrating tool either, I do the vibrating inside the watch itself. This was the subject of controversy on the this forum, then JohnR suggested I should post a walkthrough, so I started to prepare one, but found out the spring at hand is too short. Considering that Oris calender pointer balance is anulare and no weight can be added, I have to come up with another spring hopefully compatible this time.

 I keep trying the first spring on other Oris wheels until I get the correct beat.

I think continuing with the first spring doesn't serve the initial intent of the walkthrough, which is to show how to vibrate inside the watch. Folks come to a stop when h/s is ruined and replacement balance is either not available or too expensive.

You are right, I have been on the quest to source some hairsprings as I have several hundered calender pointers awaiting good hairspring. Hairsprings are the first part to get ruined during service/ repair and challanging to sort out, so vibrating with new springs is the prefered option at my age.

Thanks again for your helpful tip.

Regs

 

 

 

 

[dadistic]

Well, a hairspring vibrator just compares the balance being adjusted against a balance of a known rate, and gives you a relatively easy way of adjusting the pinning point. 

It seems like doing this in a watch would be tricky and time consuming, having to move the stud around.

What is the diameter of the balance on your Oris calendar pointer watches?

[Nucejoe]

9 minutes ago, dadistic said:

Well, a hairspring vibrator just compares the balance being adjusted against a balance of a known rate, and gives you a relatively easy way of adjusting the pinning point. 

It seems like doing this in a watch would be tricky and time consuming, having to move the stud around.

What is the diameter of the balance on your Oris calendar pointer watches?

It is time consuming. I do fifteen at a time, check the time keeping on bench, keep the good time keepers and reprocess the rest. Been doing this for years and have run out of hairsprings.

Jdm just posted a link to complete balance on ebay, thats the one. 

Regs

[Nucejoe]

35 minutes ago, jdm said:

Oris 671 or 677? For the first check

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Balance-complete-ORIS-671-672-680-681-670-Roskopf-s-vis-bilanciere-completo-721/165029680135

 

 Thank you Jdm.  Good option if you I just needed one.

At $20 a piece I will have to dish out 6k for 300 pieces, which is the least number of Oris on my to fix box. 

I am told I have the largest collection of Oris calendar pointers on the globe. not sure if thats true, but this many Oris got me bamboozled for sure.

Regs

 

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

At $20 a piece I will have to dish out 6k for 300 pieces

He may have even more and work a deal, just contact to know. However nothing is cheap and own time is invaluable.

 

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 I am told I have the largest collection of Oris calendar pointers on the globe.

If I had that many same watches I would start selling for fun, reputation, and funds.