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Janta / Pearl Watch Cleaning Machine


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16 hours ago, muddtt said:

This is what it looks like when I'm spinning parts in the air. I have the parts reasonably spread out so the weight is distributed evenly. What do you guys think?

My basket shaft is wonky and to make it worse the screw that holds the basket bracket on the shaft was taped crooked causing the basket bracket to tilt slightly and the I.D. of the basket bracket is a little oversized and I am guessing you may be in the same boat as I am. This is defiantly causing the vibration in your video.                                                            

I am going to have another shaft made, my shaft is 3/8" DIA  (.375) then the shaft needs to be taped  in both ends   and a 3/8 stop bushing needs placed onto the shaft. It Is not that complicated of a procedure for any machine shop.The 300 series stainless steel rod and 3/8 bushing only cost me under $10.00  I am guessing the machine shop wound charge $50 - $75 to do the work. the only other thing would be adjusting the rod tension screws to get the proper "slide" up and down on the basket rod (see pic) That will greatly improve performance to a Elma like smoothness.                                                               

I am in the process of doing this, I have the parts ordered and I will post the results.

 

2048359053_SWCM5A(2).thumb.jpg.ea33a819a1a4ef1b9b9c59f250b15528.jpg

Edited by jimzzilla
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57 minutes ago, jimzzilla said:

My basket shaft is wonky and to make it worse the screw that holds the basket bracket on the shaft was taped crooked causing the basket bracket to tilt slightly and the I.D. of the basket bracket is a little oversized and I am guessing you may be in the same boat as I am. This is defiantly causing the vibration in your video.                                                            

I am going to have another shaft made, my shaft is 3/8" DIA  (.375) then the shaft needs to be taped  in both ends   and a 3/8 stop bushing needs placed onto the shaft. It Is not that complicated of a procedure for any machine shop.The 300 series stainless steel rod and 3/8 bushing only cost me under $10.00  I am guessing the machine shop wound charge $50 - $75 to do the work. the only other thing would be adjusting the rod tension screws to get the proper "slide" up and down on the basket rod (see pic) That will greatly improve performance to a Elma like smoothness.                                                               

I am in the process of doing this, I have the parts ordered and I will post the results.

 

2048359053_SWCM5A(2).thumb.jpg.ea33a819a1a4ef1b9b9c59f250b15528.jpg

Now that I look at my machine more closely, when I spin the rod by hand I do see the basket holder tilted. So what you're describing is dead on for my case. Please keep us updated!

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12 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Was your machine able to control the speed when it was in the solution? 

Also, is the voltage correct for your country?

 

It could control the speed while in solution to a small degree and not at all when out of solution. It was the correct voltage and I replaced the plug for a US plug.

 

10 hours ago, muddtt said:

Yea. If the seller doesn't help me, hopefully Esty will. If not them I'll do a credit card charge back. Hopefully it never has to come to that.  

In the solution the speed control works great. And yes the voltage is right for my country. 

I bought mine from Etsy too. The seller only accepted paypal so Etsy said that the item isn't eligible for Etsy Payments Support and Paypal won't help if it is 180 days after purchase.

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Slow motion at 25% speed. Can clearly see the imbalance of the holder.

27 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

I bought mine from Etsy too. The seller only accepted paypal so Etsy said that the item isn't eligible for Etsy Payments Support and Paypal won't help if it is 180 days after purchase.

You didn't pay on PayPal with a credit card? Sucks that you got a bum machine. 

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41 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

 

It could control the speed while in solution to a small degree and not at all when out of solution. It was the correct voltage and I replaced the plug for a US plug.

 

I bought mine from Etsy too. The seller only accepted paypal so Etsy said that the item isn't eligible for Etsy Payments Support and Paypal won't help if it is 180 days after purchase.

When you said it died on you, what exactly happened? Did the coils burn? Was there a burning smell? Or did the motor sieze up? You can tell the difference by listening to the motor, if there is a humming sound, then it might be just siezed up.

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1 hour ago, muddtt said:

You didn't pay on PayPal with a credit card? Sucks that you got a bum machine. 

I did pay on PayPal with a credit card, but this was 10 months ago and outside of the time frame where they could have helped.

 

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

When you said it died on you, what exactly happened? Did the coils burn? Was there a burning smell? Or did the motor sieze up? You can tell the difference by listening to the motor, if there is a humming sound, then it might be just siezed up.

 

It was in the middle of a cleaning cycle and it just stopped. There wasn't any type of burning smell. I just went and checked if there is a humming sound, and it actually started spinning! I've tested it more than a dozen times over the last two months and it never spun up so I'm not sure why it suddenly decided to start working.

I did wonder if the original problem didn't come from all of the solution that winds up on the inside of the bottom base, where all the wires are running. It gets really wet in there because the arm keeps creeping up, flinging solution out of the jar. In the first and second positions (cleaning and first rinse) it works fine when in solution but in the third position (2nd rinse) it creeps up out of the solution and flings the solution everywhere. However, when in any of the three positions and in the spin cycle when it is just above the solution spinning off the excess, the arm/basket will creep up out of the jar. So I was basically just tied to the machine during the entire cleaning cycle as I have to physically hold the arm so it stays in place.

Now that the machine seems to be working (for now), any ideas on how to get the arm to stay in position?

 

 

Edited by GuyMontag
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4 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

 

Now that the machine seems to be working (for now), any ideas on how to get the arm to stay in position?

Mine has a little brass piece that the knob clamps on to. That piece can move up and down. Sometimes if i don't watch that brass can ride up if i don't loosen the knob enough and I don't get good clamping force. Maybe your brass is riding up by the time you get to the 3rd position?

 

Otherwise, I'd check your wire connections. Maybe something came loose. Like the photos above, my rheostat was just twisted together with electrical tape on the outside. The other connections are easy to check cause they're just screwed to a block.

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24 minutes ago, muddtt said:

Mine has a little brass piece that the knob clamps on to. That piece can move up and down. Sometimes if i don't watch that brass can ride up if i don't loosen the knob enough and I don't get good clamping force. Maybe your brass is riding up by the time you get to the 3rd position?

 

Otherwise, I'd check your wire connections. Maybe something came loose. Like the photos above, my rheostat was just twisted together with electrical tape on the outside. The other connections are easy to check cause they're just screwed to a block.

This is from the video in my previous post, is this what you mean by the brass piece creeping up?

watch-machine-photo.jpg.1cde536bff461b49cbe21235c9485d4b.jpg

 

Yeah, my rheostat wires are also just taped together.

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17 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

This is from the video in my previous post, is this what you mean by the brass piece creeping up?

watch-machine-photo.jpg.1cde536bff461b49cbe21235c9485d4b.jpg

 

Yeah, my rheostat wires are also just taped together.

Yea that little brass colored thing. Sometimes it doesn't drop back down when I loosen the knob and it won't grip the shaft well the next time I tighten it. 

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7 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I did pay on PayPal with a credit card, but this was 10 months ago and outside of the time frame where they could have helped.

 

 

It was in the middle of a cleaning cycle and it just stopped. There wasn't any type of burning smell. I just went and checked if there is a humming sound, and it actually started spinning! I've tested it more than a dozen times over the last two months and it never spun up so I'm not sure why it suddenly decided to start working.

I did wonder if the original problem didn't come from all of the solution that winds up on the inside of the bottom base, where all the wires are running. It gets really wet in there because the arm keeps creeping up, flinging solution out of the jar. In the first and second positions (cleaning and first rinse) it works fine when in solution but in the third position (2nd rinse) it creeps up out of the solution and flings the solution everywhere. However, when in any of the three positions and in the spin cycle when it is just above the solution spinning off the excess, the arm/basket will creep up out of the jar. So I was basically just tied to the machine during the entire cleaning cycle as I have to physically hold the arm so it stays in place.

Now that the machine seems to be working (for now), any ideas on how to get the arm to stay in position?

 

 

Did your machine have that awful vibration when you first got it or is that a recent development? Does it vibrate without the basket attached to the spindle?

There should be a way to increase the amount of friction on the motor spindle to prevent it from creeping up but I think you should address the vibration issue first.

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8 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I did pay on PayPal with a credit card, but this was 10 months ago and outside of the time frame where they could have helped.

 

 

It was in the middle of a cleaning cycle and it just stopped. There wasn't any type of burning smell. I just went and checked if there is a humming sound, and it actually started spinning! I've tested it more than a dozen times over the last two months and it never spun up so I'm not sure why it suddenly decided to start working.

I did wonder if the original problem didn't come from all of the solution that winds up on the inside of the bottom base, where all the wires are running. It gets really wet in there because the arm keeps creeping up, flinging solution out of the jar. In the first and second positions (cleaning and first rinse) it works fine when in solution but in the third position (2nd rinse) it creeps up out of the solution and flings the solution everywhere. However, when in any of the three positions and in the spin cycle when it is just above the solution spinning off the excess, the arm/basket will creep up out of the jar. So I was basically just tied to the machine during the entire cleaning cycle as I have to physically hold the arm so it stays in place.

Now that the machine seems to be working (for now), any ideas on how to get the arm to stay in position?

 

 

You're machine defiantly has a out of spec basket shaft and the basket holder is also crooked as well. I can see it. All that vibration could have loosen a wire, If It Is DOA I would get a volt meter and check the wiring block in the head of the machine, TAKE PICTURES FIRST so you know where the wires go. Take out the wires one by one and re terminate back into the wiring block , the wires that are twisted together make sure they are twisted tightly together, check the cord, check the rheostat wires, check the capacitor, check the wiring that goes to the timer and switches . check everything to see if something came loose. If the windings on the motor are not burnt or black there is a chance it is only a line voltage issue. If you turn on the machine and spin the basket shaft by hand and it starts up then chances are the capacitor is bad. I hope you have some basic skills using a volt meter. Having the unit not turn on is better than seeing smoke or smelling a burning smell.

 

 

SWC2.jpg

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Did your machine have that awful vibration when you first got it or is that a recent development? Does it vibrate without the basket attached to the spindle?

There should be a way to increase the amount of friction on the motor spindle to prevent it from creeping up but I think you should address the vibration issue first.

The Allen screws in this picture is what adjusts the tension on the basket rod. I have not tried to loosen them yet so I don't know if they have Loctite or something on the threads. You will have to cut down an Allen wrench to get in there.

SWCM5A (2).jpg

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16 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Did your machine have that awful vibration when you first got it or is that a recent development? Does it vibrate without the basket attached to the spindle?

There should be a way to increase the amount of friction on the motor spindle to prevent it from creeping up but I think you should address the vibration issue first.

No, it didn't have that vibration at first. I've only put 10-15 watches through it so far and it started with the vibration after maybe 5 or so watches.

I think that the vibration may be generated by the arm becoming loose so that as the arm starts to creep up, the arm isn't held under the correct amount of friction, so then the while unit starts to vibrate.

I just ran it with an empty basket and paid attention to that little brass bit where you tighten the knob to fix the arm in place. It definately made a big improvement in how much the arm creeps up, which also pretty much did away with the vibration, at least at the beginning. However, you can see as the arm starts to creep up, the solution in the jar really starts to slosh around compared to when I first start the machine:

 

 

This is without the jar to better see the basket and arm:

 

I think (hope) that maybe I just need to figure out how to better tighten the arm so it doesn't start creeping up, but I don't really have any ideas on that. Pushing that brass part down before fully tightening the knob did help compared to how it acted previously but it doesn't seem to be enough to keep it from moving. Or, I guess it could be the basket or shaft is off center so that it starts to shimmy, causing vibrations, which is what is causing the arm to creep up.

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Hi  To test the rotation  remove basket and the impeller, now you have the bare motor shaft. Spin up the motor and check the shaft for any deviation. If the shaft is ok then fit the impeller and repeat the test and watch the assembly for being true, and then fit the basket and repeat the test again.   To tighten the clamp  take out the brass key and substitute it with a hard wood one and tighten down the clamp. As you tighten down the wood will compress a little and grip the shaft. It mat be that the brass key is too thick and not allowing the clamp to grip properly.          Just a few Ideas to consider.       cheers

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43 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  To test the rotation  remove basket and the impeller, now you have the bare motor shaft. Spin up the motor and check the shaft for any deviation. If the shaft is ok then fit the impeller and repeat the test and watch the assembly for being true, and then fit the basket and repeat the test again.   To tighten the clamp  take out the brass key and substitute it with a hard wood one and tighten down the clamp. As you tighten down the wood will compress a little and grip the shaft. It mat be that the brass key is too thick and not allowing the clamp to grip properly.          Just a few Ideas to consider.       cheers

Is the impeller held on by just the one screw on the side? I removed it and the thing was still stuck on the shaft.

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26 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I think I know what the problem is.

Watch this video.

The motor head should be lowered until it touches the rim of the bottle to reduce splashes and evaporation of the cleaning solution. 

Yes, thanks for that, that does seem to help keep the arm totally stable now 👍

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I think everything In the drive line of this machine is a little off. The basket looks off as well.

I herd Elma baskets fit this unit as well? I wonder if that would be any better? and i wonder if a slightly slower

spin cycle rpm makes for less sloshing?

I want to get to the bottom of this problem, I can't wait to get the parts in and start working on the shaft and then go from there to to the next problem and get things resolved.

Is anyone using wavebreakers in their jars to reduce cavitation? I purchased some for mine and are not cheap

but it was recommended to a watchmaker friend of mine to get them. I do not know how much they help as I haven't used mine yet, and make sure you bend them to fit tightly in the jar or the basket will grab one and lock up the machine.

 

 

Wavebreaker / Breakwater For Elma Super-Elite Cleaning Machine - HZC5115

WAVEBREAKER1.jpg

WAVEBREAKER2.jpg

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38 minutes ago, jimzzilla said:

I think everything In the drive line of this machine is a little off. The basket looks off as well.

I herd Elma baskets fit this unit as well? I wonder if that would be any better? and i wonder if a slightly slower

spin cycle rpm makes for less sloshing?

I want to get to the bottom of this problem, I can't wait to get the parts in and start working on the shaft and then go from there to to the next problem and get things resolved.

Is anyone using wavebreakers in their jars to reduce cavitation? I purchased some for mine and are not cheap

but it was recommended to a watchmaker friend of mine to get them. I do not know how much they help as I haven't used mine yet, and make sure you bend them to fit tightly in the jar or the basket will grab one and lock up the machine.

 

 

Wavebreaker / Breakwater For Elma Super-Elite Cleaning Machine - HZC5115

WAVEBREAKER1.jpg

WAVEBREAKER2.jpg

This guy made his own. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, muddtt said:

This guy made his own. 
 

 

Hi muddtt, those are the stars that go in the bottom I don't know which ones are better but the stars can't hit the basket like the ones I have. See how smooth his L&R is! ..... nice 🙂 I wish ours did Fow&Rev that would be nice as well.

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32 minutes ago, jimzzilla said:

Hi muddtt, those are the stars that go in the bottom I don't know which ones are better but the stars can't hit the basket like the ones I have. See how smooth his L&R is! ..... nice 🙂 I wish ours did Fow&Rev that would be nice as well.

It seems like we have enough tinkerers on here to get our machines running well. The Etsy seller got back to me and said, "

You need to fix the basket arrow mark to machine arrow mark I will share videos too how to fix it"  I'm a bit skeptical that anything short of some new parts will fix it, but we'll see if this guy can come thru. I'll update when those videos come thru. 

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Great that sounds intriguing "basket arrow mark to machine arrow mark" Possibly an ancient method to dynamically balance rotating assemblies in India...... WOW! 🤣, still curious though. I got a email from Grainger that the stainless shaft and bushing is ready for pick up so hopefully I can get the process started. Have a good one muddtt, best regards, James.

 

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3 hours ago, muddtt said:

It seems like we have enough tinkerers on here to get our machines running well. The Etsy seller got back to me and said, "

You need to fix the basket arrow mark to machine arrow mark I will share videos too how to fix it"  I'm a bit skeptical that anything short of some new parts will fix it, but we'll see if this guy can come thru. I'll update when those videos come thru. 

I don't know if it's the same seller on Etsy that I used. I hope not. That guy kept telling me he was going to send me videos to fix my problem, which honestly seemed nonsensical considering that my problem was the unit wouldn't power on, but he never sent me any videos anyway. In fact the last message I sent to him 2 months ago was, "where are the videos you told me you were going to send me". He has yet to reply.

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You may have to try and fix it yourself of try and find someone who can, an electrician would  not be mt first choice as a person to look at the unit. Someone who does electro mechanical or prototyping would be my first choice and remember the motor in this thing is a bit obscure to a lot of techs although it is basically a glorified sewing machine motor.

 

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Well this is what I've been messing with:

1) The shaft itself is true (Video). The problem is definitely in the rotor being off axis.

2) Bending the spring that presses against the basket as the seller demonstrated in his video above does indeed help. It is just a bandaid to the larger issue though.

3) The comment from the seller about something about an arrow turned out to be true (picture). When I inspected one of my baskets there was an arrow that lines up with a scribed mark in the rotor. The assembly did indeed spin better in this position compared with the other two positions. The second basket it came with didn't have an arrow, but I found it also performed better in one of the positions. 

4) I found that the rotor was heavily weighted to one side so I spent some time removing material to balance the weight more (picture). Although I feel like it did help a little, the problem with the rotor being off axis still proved to be the main culprit. I really wish I had access to a lathe so I could center the rotor better. 

 

 

 

IMG_0174.JPG

IMG_0176.JPG

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