Adjusting beat error on a movement without adjustable stud carrier

[VWatchie]

9 hours ago, Marc said:

If you then change the orientation of the roller table relative to the balance wheel, you will then upset the poise of the assembly.

I must admit that I hadn't considered this the first time you mentioned it. But I was intrigued by @Nucejoe's out of the box approach to adjusting the beat error by rotating the roller (never heard of it), and when joe admits that it upsets the poise but that he is still willing to do it (or perhaps it was just an idea?) I thought he might have determined that the upset in poise was negligible. Hence, I was curious to know if the upset would be detectable and how much. Yes, in theory, there's little doubt that it would upset the poise, but I've learnt to never say never, and I admire people like joe who are able to think out of the box because I suck at it but I work on it.

9 hours ago, Marc said:

The balance wheel is poised (either static or dynamic poising) with the roller table in-situ.

Dynamic poising without the roller table in-situ I believe could possibly be a bit of a challenge, then you'd really have to think out of the box! 

Anyway, I think it would be sort of interesting to poise a balance and then shift the position of the roller table to see how much effect it has. What's your experience joe?

Edited September 24, 2021 by VWatchie

[Nucejoe]

14 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 

Have you verified this on a poising tool? Changing the position of the roller will will shift the poise to some extent I believe, but I was thinking that the impulse pin might compensate for the weight loss of the crescent on the safety roller. I.e., that the roller should approx. have the same weight around its circumference. I may be totally off here, but that's why I'd like to know if it has been verified as notable on a posing tool. If not, I can test it and report back.

Hi VWatchie, sorry for late response.

No I haven't "verified" it.

The thing is that ,  when a balance complete is disturbed you have lost the perfect dynamic poise it left the production line with and in case of fix stud holder created some beat error too. 

In case of undisturbed balance, moving  the hairspring through stud hole is my preferred method.

Regs

 

[nickelsilver]

I have a tool that moves the roller table in very precise increments for fine tuning the beat error. I only used it on one caliber I used to do for a small manufacturer, it's not terribly practical for everyday use. It has a table with a collet in the center that clamps on the roller table, then a finger clamp that holds the balance rim. The table turns around the collet, with index marks so you know how far you went. You can very easily turn the roller table a fraction of a degree, and then go back exactly the same if you want.

 

For every day work, from the smallest ladies movements to marine chonometer, I set the balance with the cock on a bench block so the roller table is in a hole, balance on the block. Lift up the cock and move it over- not flipping it, just moving laterally, until I can see the slot in the hairspring collet, get in there and adjust (for tiny watches this is usually with an oiler, larger, a small screwdriver). Go back in the watch and check on the machine.

 

If you have no idea which way to move, like when you are very close and the fork looks perfectly centered, you can check like this: let off all power, hold the balance rim, then nudge the center wheel so an escape tooth contact a pallet stone. See where it contacts. Rotate balance so an escape tooth can contact the other pallet stone, observe. This is with zero power on the watch so the balance really truly finds its neutral position. If, for example, a tooth hits the front part of the entry stone, and the last part of the exit stone, you can rotate the balance to see which way it needs to go (here the balance need to turn counter-clockwise from its rest state, so the hairspring needs to go clockwise).

[Nucejoe]

26 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

 

Anyway, I think it would be sort of interesting to poise a balance and then shift the position of the roller table to see how much effect it has. What's your experience joe?

Will negligibly affect accuracy.  You wouldn't want to ignore the effect with Chronograde oscilators, as you are aiming at percision.

If you need to turn the hairspring!  Your oscilator must have been worked on or disturbed before anyway.

OP doesn't say how he ended up needing to adjusting for beat error. If oscilator is disturbed/ worked on, it needs to be poised .

 

 

[VWatchie]

22 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I have a tool that moves the roller table in very precise increments for fine tuning the beat error.

Wow! So, rotating the roller table isn't unheard of and there's even a tool that can do it. If today had been April 1st I wouldn't have believe you!  Just amazing! Thanks for showing us!

25 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

For every day work, from the smallest ladies movements to marine chonometer, I set the balance with the cock on a bench block so the roller table is in a hole, balance on the block. Lift up the cock and move it over- not flipping it, just moving laterally, until I can see the slot in the hairspring collet, get in there and adjust (for tiny watches this is usually with an oiler, larger, a small screwdriver). Go back in the watch and check on the machine.

The pedagogic quality of this paragraph is world-class. You should be writing a book. The only other method I've seen is putting the cock on a balance tack, but when I tried, it felt so unsafe that I decided not to risk it but instead live with the beat error. I just could't get enough leverage with the screwdriver blade (meticulously dressed for the occasion), while everything was moving around. Using the balance tack, keeping the balance wheel steady while manipulating the collet probably takes a lot, a lot of practice (and guts). The next time I will definitely try your method. Anyway, just to make sure:

43 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

If you have no idea which way to move, like when you are very close and the fork looks perfectly centered, you can check like this:

Again, the stuff of a book by @nickelsilver everyone would want to have!

I note that nowhere in your post do you imply that adjusting the beat error by shifting the roller requires re-poising the balance. That's very interesting too. So, would you say that shifting the roller has a negligible effect on the poise?

[Nucejoe]

One is shooting in the dark without the tool Nickelsilver just showed.

 

[Nucejoe]

37 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

 

I note that nowhere in your post do you imply that adjusting the beat error by shifting the roller requires re-poising the balance. That's very interesting too. So, would you say that shifting the roller has a negligible effect on the poise?

Rotating roller table by a degree wouldn't alter the poise of an ordinary grade oscilator much.  

I haven't yet build a chronograde oscilator.   

The tool tells more than this whole thread, doesn't it.

[clockboy]

The tip I read somewhere is to determine which way the hairspring has to move is to run the watch power down then ad a touch of power and the side where the pallet folk finally stops indicates the side that needs to be moved away from. 
I have tried this method and it works but I advise to do the test several times to make sure you are not getting a false reading. 

[nickelsilver]

VWatchie- yes, a block like that or any that will allow setting the roller table into a hole. I have a larger square one that is a little more stable. I do the adjustment under the microscope, which is pretty essential as the adjustment is usually very very small. I hold a balance arm of the rim with tweezers while moving the collet.

 

Shifting the roller table a very small amount for final beat error correction isn't enough to affect the poise. If you restaff and didn't mark the sense for the roller table, and get it 180 degrees out, you will definitely see an error! And if you move it more than a couple of degrees you really should adjust at the collet.

 

Of course it is absolutely imperative to not throw the hairspring out of true at the collet in either the round or flat- this will have a major effect on the timing.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I hold a balance arm of the rim with tweezers while moving the collet.

Thanks for clarifying further !

[JohnR725]

On 9/23/2021 at 2:07 AM, ifibrin said:

but IPA also dissolved shellac, so be very careful!

What do the initials IPA Stand for?

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

What do the initials IPA Stand for?

Isopropyl alcohol

[JohnR725]

28 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Isopropyl alcohol

I want to make sure we were on the exact same page of what this is? Up above it was suggested that isopropyl alcohol dissolves shellac but at work the cleaning machine we have the final rinse is isopropyl alcohol. As far as I know we've never had any shellac dissolving problem from isopropyl alcohol.

[jdm]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

As far as I know we've never had any shellac dissolving problem from isopropyl alcohol.

If you give it enough time it will probably soften it. But the warning is repeated as a sort of scaramancy every time that cleaning, alcohol, and some other trigger words are mentioned. 

[Marc]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Up above it was suggested that isopropyl alcohol dissolves shellac

Shellac is absolutely soluble in IPA.

Shellac varnish or french polish is basically shellac dissolved in either IPA or methylated spirit. Quite a lot of wood finishers prefer to use IPA as the varnish has a slightly longer drying time than if it is made with meths.

It is however a question of prolonged exposure here. It can take 24 hours or so to dissolve a pound of shellac flakes in a gallon of IPA. Although the amount of shellac involved in watch movements is infinitesimally small by comparison, we are also only talking about a few minutes exposure at most.

[nickelsilver]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I want to make sure we were on the exact same page of what this is? Up above it was suggested that isopropyl alcohol dissolves shellac but at work the cleaning machine we have the final rinse is isopropyl alcohol. As far as I know we've never had any shellac dissolving problem from isopropyl alcohol.

The "right" alcohol for shellac is ethyl. Some (many?) manufacturers spec isopropyl as a final rinse. The rinse time usually is between 3-5 mins, and if you've ever tried to go "full clean" on a pallet fork this is nowhere near enough time. Back in the day I would do like the Levin book said and boil the fork in a test tube over a flame- but that was denatured alcohol, i.e. ethyl with additives to make it undrinkable.

 

One of my cleaning machines uses iso alcohol as a rinse, the only rinse, as it has a built-in distiller, so 2x (with water based cleaner). The manual says to rinse the balance and fork in the virgin alcohol, then the rest of the parts, then dump the alcohol and let the distiller fill up the second rinse. The alcohol is constantly being distilled so very warm, and yes, if you leave a fork in very warm iso alcohol for more than 10 mins you'll be reshellacking.

 

But a 3-5 minute trip as AP and others request, cold, no problem.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Some (many?) manufacturers spec isopropyl as a final rinse.

Are machine was made by Elma and as far as I can tell we've never had a problem of shellac coming off in the cleaning machine. Seeing as how this is a very good cleaning machine it seems like it was a problem we would have a problem but we don't.

But I do remember one is looking up something related to this at one time on a discussion group for woodworking somebody claims they were using isopropyl alcohol to make their varnish I believe is made from shellac. But I had the feeling that was not their preferred choice.

The reason for the recommendation of alcohol is the final rinse is that? Previously the previous watchmaker told me a story of were at sea level air pressure and other nonsense and simplistically the watch rinse doesn't dry. I suppose I should look at the programming and see how long it is in the alcohol because for home use with my cleaning I use a different alcohol which I do know dissolves shellac it's one of the purposes of it but I'm only in there a few seconds just enough to rinse off the final watch rinse and I've never had a problem with that but I definitely would not leave it in there very long in the stuff lime using or I would have no shellac.

3 hours ago, jdm said:

If you give it enough time it will probably soften it. But the warning is repeated as a sort of scaramancy every time that cleaning, alcohol, and some other trigger words are mentioned.

Then yes warnings are always good beak's interesting things happen if you leave your watch too long exposed to some chemicals. One of my friends had a roller jewel come out in his pocket watch and in our discussion of how might that of happened I discovered that he used alcohol as a rinse but he rinsed for far too long.

Then the warnings of fluids are not just for alcohol-based even the cleaning fluids you leave your watch and the professional watch cleaning a solution like we go on vacation I saw that in another discussion group he was looking for a new movement of very expensive movement.

 

[VWatchie]

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What do the initials IPA Stand for?

 

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Isopropyl alcohol

Oh no, I always though it was India Pale Ale. I guess this explains the sticky hairsprings. Oh well, you learn something new every day!

Edited September 25, 2021 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

18 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

As far as I know we've never had any shellac dissolving problem from isopropyl alcohol.

My personal experience of rinsing shellacked parts in liquids designated as ISO PROPYL ALCOHOL is very, very bad, so I never do that. Depending on temperature and the shellac at hand it can take anything from a few seconds to a couple of minutes before the shellac softens and begins to disintegrate. So, statements like yours, and you're certainly not alone, really makes me scratch my head.

17 hours ago, jdm said:

the warning is repeated as a sort of scaramancy every time that cleaning, alcohol, and some other trigger words are mentioned.

And for good reasons, based on my personal experience.

17 hours ago, Marc said:

Shellac is absolutely soluble in IPA.

Indeed! Of course, time and temperature is crucial, but there is no doubt in my mind that your statement is correct: "Shellac is absolutely soluble in IPA."

After re-shellacking pallets with this type of shellac from CousinsUK, I've noticed that the shellac can't take any exposure at all to IPA. It dissolves in seconds. On the other hand, I've also noticed that old shellac can be very difficult to dissolve in IPA and also needs to be scraped off. Perhaps the chemical composition of old shellac changes over time so that it becomes harder and less susceptible to IPA, or perhaps shellac today is not what it used to be 50 or a hundred years ago?

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The "right" alcohol for shellac is ethyl.

This is highly interesting! However, ethyl alcohol is very difficult to come by in (heavily influenced by socialism) Sweden (and prohibited to manufacture) as the state is 100 % convinced we're unable to refrain ourselves from drinking it instead of using it for rinsing watch parts. I believe denatured alcohol can be bought but I would have to look into it.

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

One of my cleaning machines uses iso alcohol as a rinse

 

15 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The alcohol is constantly being distilled so very warm, and yes, if you leave a fork in very warm iso alcohol for more than 10 mins you'll be reshellacking.

Warm ISO PROPYL ALCOHOL? And never any problems with shellac? I just don't get it... Are you just working on very, very old movements? Or, perhaps shellac today is not the same it was 50 or a hundred years ago and you have an old stock of special shellac for watch movements?

I should mention that CousinsUK recommends mineralised methylated spirits to dissolve shellac. I haven't tried it yet and so far the best chemical I've found for dissolving shellac is acetone.

For now I'll stick to my guns, India Pale Ale, at least for myself after the final rinse! 

[nickelsilver]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

 

Warm ISO PROPYL ALCOHOL? And never any problems with shellac? I just don't get it... Are you just working on very, very old movements? Or, perhaps shellac today is not the same it was 50 or a hundred years ago and you have an old stock of special shellac for watch movements?

I should mention that CousinsUK recommends mineralised methylated spirits to dissolve shellac. I haven't tried it yet and so far the best chemical I've found for dissolving shellac is acetone.

For now I'll stick to my guns, India Pale Ale, at least for myself after the final rinse! 

The Greiner instructions were to rinse the fork and balance complete for about 30 seconds in clean rinse (alcohol), and that has never given me a problem. I did sometimes rinse them with the other parts, and then I would frequently need to reshellac- but as I retouch the escapement on probably 1 out of 3 (maybe even 50%) watches it isn't a big deal to reshellac. The pallet stones should be a friction fit so even if the shellac goes away the remain in place.

 

Methylated spirits is what they call denatured alcohol in the U.K. It's ethyl alcohol with stuff added so you can't drink it.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Methylated spirits is what they call denatured alcohol in the U.K. It's ethyl alcohol with stuff added so you can't drink it.

This is getting more and more confusing by the minute. Cousins recommends it for dissolving shellac! Perhaps it's the "mineralised" thing that makes the difference.

18 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Back in the day I would do like the Levin book said and boil the fork in a test tube over a flame- but that was denatured alcohol, i.e. ethyl with additives to make it undrinkable.

And this indicates that denatured alcohol has no effect at all on shellac!

Anyway, until further notice I'll keep cleaning my pallets by hand in Horosolv degreaser. It doesn't take much extra effort and it works really well.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

I did sometimes rinse them with the other parts, and then I would frequently need to reshellac- but as I retouch the escapement on probably 1 out of 3 (maybe even 50%) watches it isn't a big deal to reshellac.

Did you ever poke the shellac with tweezers after your 30 seconds? Still hard? Perhaps it's OK to soften the shellac a bit. Perhaps it doesn't even matter if it becomes a bit soft? Perhaps it hardens again after a while?

Well, I've learnt how to reshellac, but I haven't quite reached the stage where I can say it isn't a "big deal" 

IMO, IPA is best for drinking!

Edited September 25, 2021 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

31 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This is getting more and more confusing by the minute. Cousins recommends it for dissolving shellac! Perhaps it's the "mineralised" thing that makes the difference.

And this indicates that denatured alcohol has no effect at all on shellac!

Anyway, until further notice I'll keep cleaning my pallets by hand in Horosolv degreaser. It doesn't take much extra effort and it works really well.

Not at all- ethyl alcohol is the alcohol for dissolving shellac. As it is frequently abused, it's sold mostly as denatured alcohol or methylated spirits. The additives make it undrinkable but it functions quite well otherwise*. Other alcohols will dissolve it, but not as effectively. If shellac has softened from contact with alcohol, it will re-harden as the alcohol evaporates, this is the basis for shellac finishes for wood. Denatured/methylated is also the right alcohol for an alcohol lamp- aka spirit lamp in the U.K.

 

The above mention of boiling out in a test tube is because there's a big difference between softening shellac and completely removing it. I used to go to the trouble of completely removing it when setting up an escapement, only re-applying once I was happy with my stone positions. Nowadays I don't bother. But I found that even a long, like 30 minute or more soak at room temperature usually left some remnants, thus the boiling. (the test tube allows you to point the end far from the flame- even so I have ejected a plume of flame along with a fork before!)

 

* There are no real standards as to what is done to "denature" ethyl alcohol. So sometimes it's cut with water to bulk it up, and sometimes mixed with some cheaper (and poisonous) methyl alcohol- thus the U.K. name, and usually has a couple to several other chemicals added to make it very unappealing or even deadly to drink, and difficult to separate the ethyl back out through normal distillation methods. I have noticed that some brands burn very poorly in my alcohol lamps, in spite of being sold as lamp fuel. Some burn very well. Probably more water in the poor one.

Edited September 25, 2021 by nickelsilver

[JohnR725]

I thought I'd give you something to ponder? Somewhere out there online I seen better pictures of one of these disassembled. But finding pictures at all is hard so this was the easiest one to find and it has a description which I thought you'd find interesting?

The first stage uses cleaning fluid and ultrasonic basically standard cleaning of the watch.

The second uses a fluid which gets distilled so it's nice and clean. Notice what kind of fluid this is?

The third is even more interesting in that this is the surface treatment. Normally extremely expensive but here they use powdered steric acid that they vaporize.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/greiner-ultrason-cleaning-machine-465667345

Then there's another way to look at the isopropyl alcohol problem let's look at a group of people who love to dissolve their shellac they're not happy unless it's dissolved and let's see what they say about isopropyl alcohol.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/isopropyl-or-denatured-alcohol

[nickelsilver]

The machine John linked is what I used for a good 15 years.* I sought one out on Derek Pratt's advice, as he'd bought one and found it outperformed anything else on the market at the time. It is a truly cool machine, and the "virgin" final rinse every time is the key. Also, parts are strung on little "trees" so more exposed to the cleaning action. The first bath is also pumped through a filter with a magnet inside to catch dust and metal crap.

 

As it's around 60 years old I've recently moved on to the current Greiner ACS 900, and with their solutions I'm very happy.

 

*the old Ultrason II is still running and is particularly good when cleaning parts that will be plated or blued.