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ETA2801-2 low amplitude, running slow


scarab
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Hello,

I have a problem with my ETA2801-2. Initially the watch was running great, but it was skipping while winding. I guess I made a mistake and pulled the train bridge in order to check the mainspring, afterwards I figured that wasn’t necessary. Anyway, after putting everything back together it was running with low amplitude and became impossible to regulate to anything over -120spd. I decided to pull the bridge again, and clean all associated parts in ultrasonic, and re-lubricate. Unfortunately nothing has changed, it still runs with low amplitude - about 230 and there is no way to make it run any faster than -120spd. What could be the reason behind it? Here is how it looks like on a time grapher. 

0916702C-FFC8-49DC-A8C2-A1ADE075CFD0.jpeg

D8B53706-F8E2-4E68-9494-CB5EB7D54D5D.jpeg

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20 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

The mere vibrations destroy pivot hanging in solution. No need to vibrate against anything.

you really need to elaborate on this? As most commercial watch cleaning machines use ultrasonic and I've never heard of watchmakers talking about vibration destroying their pivots or doing almost anything else bad to the watch. then there other commercial machines that vibrate when they rotate around. 

There are exceptions to this? If you leave the watch too long in some commercial watch cleaning solutions like way past the recommended time you'll start to see chemical etching. But as far as pivots mysteriously disappear in the cleaning machine that's news to me?

On 9/17/2021 at 7:03 AM, scarab said:

Yes, I put the balance and the fork in ultrasonic as well. 

I'm finding the story doesn't make sense to me? You had a winding problem then at some point in time you totally disassembled and cleaned everything? Did you take the balance jewels out and clean those? Then I'm assuming you moved the regulator trying to regulate what about the beat adjustment?

Here's what's bothering me timing machine you need to understand how to interpret it. It shows you're running really slow and the beat is perfect but I doubt that?

ideally will be nice if you let the power off and visually verified the watch really was in beat? Because I don't think your watches in beat at all

I'm attaching an image from the eta website of your movement. when you have a watch that has a floating beat adjustment it becomes really easy to get that out of alignment and if you go too far like to the extreme your timing machine may have an issue and not give you the correct information.is supposed to have the ability to adjust in either direction but yours is at the extreme there is no room for adjustment so I think it is at the extreme and it's a problem amongst other things.

as an experiment you collided push the stud holder away from where it is and move the regulator so that more corresponds to the picture that I have and see what that does for you. Also of course you want to pay attention they hairspring that the regulating pins aren't too tight of the etachron system. Sometimes people adjust those two tight. Then leave the micrometer screw alone it's not that I get you anything right now.

On 9/17/2021 at 5:17 PM, scarab said:

was aware IPA is a no go for balance,

then this is an interesting statement because the final rinse in our cleaning machine is isopropyl alcohol. It was recommended by the manufacturer of the commercial watch cleaning machine.

eta 2801-2 photo.JPG

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9 hours ago, ifibrin said:

If you are test the end-shake of the balance in this way, wouldn't you only be able to see the (potential) movement of the jewel hole on the balance cock side? Seems quite difficult to manipulate the balance wheel if the dial side of the movement is facing up.

You do this test dial-down. Firstly, you get a feel for how far the balance rim will move. But remember that slight side-shake will also allow it to tilt. 
 

You will be able to see the pivot move upwards into the jewel hole in the balance cock. If a chaton has been pushed outwards (increasing end shake) then you may sometimes actually find that the cap jewel spring does not appear secure against the cap jewel. 

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9 hours ago, ifibrin said:

If you are test the end-shake of the balance in this way, wouldn't you only be able to see the (potential) movement of the jewel hole on the balance cock side? Seems quite difficult to manipulate the balance wheel if the dial side of the movement is facing up.

You do this test dial-down. Firstly, you get a feel for how far the balance rim will move. But remember that slight side-shake will also allow it to tilt. 
 

You will be able to see the pivot move upwards into the jewel hole in the balance cock. If a chaton has been pushed outwards (increasing end shake) then you may sometimes actually find that the cap jewel spring does not appear secure against the cap jewel. 
 

It doesn’t prove which end has moved. That requires further investigation such as inspecting balance rim clearance against the plate and the interface between the roller and pallet fork. 

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7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

you really need to elaborate on this? As most commercial watch cleaning machines use ultrasonic and I've never heard of watchmakers talking about vibration destroying their pivots or doing almost anything else bad to the watch. then there other commercial machines that vibrate when they rotate around. 

There are exceptions to this? If you leave the watch too long in some commercial watch cleaning solutions like way past the recommended time you'll start to see chemical etching. 

I havd lost pivots in lighter fluid, Avgas and Cocacola when in ultrasonic but not by soaking for days. Some pivots of Seiko disappear, but some other brands even old balances seem undamaged. 

Vibration can distroy any massive body so long as "natural frequency"  of the body is matched, regardless of material or structure. So please refrain from blowing horn when driving inside a tunnel or near a mountain.  

Regs 

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3 hours ago, rodabod said:

You do this test dial-down. Firstly, you get a feel for how far the balance rim will move. But remember that slight side-shake will also allow it to tilt. 
 

You will be able to see the pivot move upwards into the jewel hole in the balance cock. If a chaton has been pushed outwards (increasing end shake) then you may sometimes actually find that the cap jewel spring does not appear secure against the cap jewel. 
 

It doesn’t prove which end has moved. That requires further investigation such as inspecting balance rim clearance against the plate and the interface between the roller and pallet fork. 

I gave up asking about shakes on staff and arbours, glad to see you still keep asking. 

Shakes test is the first thing I do as soon as I see the balance, often before uncasing the movement.

Regs

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3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I havd lost pivots in lighter fluid, Avgas and Cocacola when in ultrasonic but not by soaking for days. Some pivots of Seiko disappear, but some other brands even old balances seem undamaged.

That is really really strange? How long do you leave it in the ultrasonic?

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59 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

That is really really strange? How long do you leave it in the ultrasonic?

My ultrasonic cleaner goes only for 100 second and need to be switched on again for another round, usually two or three interval, so a total of 300 seconds. 

Sometimes a portion of the pivot remains intact, which indicates its not a breaking effect rather metal is chipped off in small bits.

This has been reported in the forum too, I just don't remeber the post to retract. 

I wonder if cheap ultrasonics or ones not intended for watch parts has anything to do with this, since a designer is suppose to consider the "resonant frequencies"  another name for " natural frequency" of whats being cleaned  in their calculation.

There is also the tide effect of waves, strongest at one point and weakest at another.

So to those who don't have access to a professional ultrasonic, this should be useful to know. 

Regs

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On 9/17/2021 at 7:03 PM, scarab said:

Please take a look

In the third photo, on the left side of the hairspring, the outer coils are touching. On the other side they appear too far apart. Did you find the cause of this and correct it? Maybe not directly related to the slow running, but then again, maybe your TG is confused.

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On 9/19/2021 at 4:07 PM, Nucejoe said:

Vibration can distroy any massive body so long as "natural frequency"  of the body is matched

If vibration at the pivot's natural frequency is the cause of the pivot disappearance, why is lighter fuel any more dangerous than, say, water?

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9 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

If vibration at the pivot's natural frequency is the cause of the pivot disappearance, why is lighter fuel any more dangerous than, say, water?

Experiment in water might provide some answer. 

Both Chemical and physical factors can be at work for all I know. 

Regs

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