Enthusiast Considering A Career

[Barsomn]

I'm about to pull the trigger on some old HMT watches that will take a little while to arrive in my country. These brave souls may be taken apart never to run again. Seller gave me 17% off if I buy three or more which is nice. All of these watches are still cheaper than an ST3600 from some sources too.

Some decent tools fill my wish lists as well, just in case friends/family are feeling generous.

In the mean time I got an Orient dress watch back from service and it runs great now (about -3 to -4 spd) but they slightly bent the dial, and left a few small pieces of dust on the inside of the case. I took it apart and cleaned it to my standards, pushed the dial back as much as I am comfortable with. Not much, but fulfilling work as this watch has a lot of sentimental value to me.

The red shows what a small gap that was much worse before. I can just make out the stress on the dial pin from where they pushed it back into the movement too hard. All of these points are reasons that I would like to get competent enough to maintain my collection personally.

 

[jdm]

6 minutes ago, Barsomn said:

In the mean time I got an Orient dress watch back from service and it runs great now (about -3 to -4 spd)

The universal practice is to never deliver a watch that is even a little slow. Maybe you can have it to keep better time trying different resting positions at night. Otherwise IMHO it should be regulated again.

 

6 minutes ago, Barsomn said:

All of these points are reasons that I would like to get competent enough to maintain my collection personally.

Really disappointing, fortunately not all watchmakers are like that. 

[Plato]

18 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I will attach an image of my very first chip.

That's definitely a thing of beauty! Electronics' loss is watchmaking's gain.

[Barsomn]

22 hours ago, jdm said:

The universal practice is to never deliver a watch that is even a little slow. Maybe you can have it to keep better time trying different resting positions at night. Otherwise IMHO it should be regulated again.

 

Really disappointing, fortunately not all watchmakers are like that. 

For what it’s worth the low reading I got was just an average from wearing it. 
 

Resting dial up in the box and winding winding down from full it ran +3.5spd. Average those two readings out and it’s about zero.

before service I was running about two minutes fast, depending on how much wrist movement I made. 
 

Taking from what you said though, is best practice to leave an average of positional variation after regulation just above 0spd? Like +2 or 3 to account for the constant changing of position that comes with wear?

Another movement I regulated recently, NH35A, I was targeting +0. It tends to run about -2 while on the wrist. Much the same as the Orient I shared. 
 

I feel like if a watch runs -10/+10 in number of different roles (desk diver vs active day vs. outdoor labor and exposed to heat/shock) I’m doing pretty well. What is that, 1/100th of a percent daily variation give or take?
 

Also, thanks for your comment and nice username!

[jdm]

28 minutes ago, Barsomn said:

 
Taking from what you said though, is best practice to leave an average of positional variation after regulation just above 0spd? Like +2 or 3 to account for the constant changing of position that comes with wear?

I have found that +5 tends to work better, at least with Seiko. But the dead flat line makes good pictures and impress enthusiasts.

 

28 minutes ago, Barsomn said:

Another movement I regulated recently, NH35A, I was targeting +0. It tends to run about -2 while on the wrist. Much the same as the Orient I shared. 

That is, what I was saying above. After regulation on the timegrapher the scrupolous watchmaker puts it fully cased on the automatic arm for a couple of days to see how it checks out. Of course if it's your own watch just wear it on. But in the end most people is (was) intolerant of their watch running slow, because of the potential bad consequences. 

[Barsomn]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

I have found that +5 tends to work better, at least with Seiko. 

Noted, I have a feeling similar process would translate to the Citizen and Orient movements as well.

3 hours ago, jdm said:

That is, what I was saying above. After regulation on the timegrapher the scrupolous watchmaker puts it fully cased on the automatic arm for a couple of days to see how it checks out. Of course if it's your own watch just wear it on. But in the end most people is (was) intolerant of their watch running slow, because of the potential bad consequences. 

I'm working on getting a watch winder (to even keep a piece I'm working on wound for a couple days and simulate some light movement) but honestly yeah best practice for me has always been to just wear it as I would when regulated and see how things shake out. Good point on anything running slightly slow vs. slightly fast.

[jdm]

12 hours ago, Barsomn said:

I'm working on getting a watch winder

These are cheap, often people (like me) sells their because they get bored of yet another gadget taking space. But the automatics arm is different, it's the thing with spokes which rotates all around. Some jewelers use it just for display, as it attracts people. I don't have one either.

 

[KarlvonKoln]

15 hours ago, jdm said:

I have found that +5 tends to work better, at least with Seiko. But the dead flat line makes good pictures and impress enthusiasts.

No wonder!  I noticed that too.  I worked on a Seiko Automatic diver's watch for a customer.  I regulated it to zero, thinking that should do it.  He brought it back about a week-and-a-half later, saying it was still losing a little time.  I tuned it to +3, and so far he hasn't complained yet.  But, thanks @jdm, I will remember to keep that in mind for the Seiko Automatics.
Come to think of it, I had a little gold Seiko Automatic ladies watch that was the same way.  It behaved differently when worn, than when adjusted to position on the bench.

Edited August 16, 2021 by KarlvonKoln

[clockboy]

When I return a mechanical watch to a customer I also inform them of the average regulated rate I achieved over a 24/48 hour period and explain why it is not possible to achieve a zero variation and why. 

[JohnR725]

On 8/15/2021 at 1:01 PM, jdm said:

I have found that +5 tends to work better, at least with Seiko. But the dead flat line makes good pictures and impress enthusiasts.

can I assume that when you're regulating your only regulating in the or checking in one position on the timing machine? Versus on the auto winder or the wrist which is in multiple positions?

[jdm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

can I assume that when you're regulating your only regulating in the or checking in one position on the timing machine?

No single position regulation, that's not how it's done really. But Seikos and other watches may exhibit a large deviance crown down, well that's another issue really.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Versus on the auto winder or the wrist which is in multiple positions?

You can't really regulate with the watch on these because they move all the time 
But as I wrote, the automatic arm is used to get a better approximation of performances on the wrist.

[Barsomn]

Small note if anyone happens to be following this thread, I am now the proud owner of 4 complete HMT watches, and 5 movements in "working" condition. We will see about that.

They are also shipping from India so I may not have the parts to play with for a month or more, assuming they show up at all. Still it's a cheap gamble.

For those unfamiliar, the HMT 0231 (as seen here from Ranfft Watches) is fairly identical to the Citizen 0201 which used the same tooling. India purchased it from the Japanese to make their own watches within the country.

 

 

Here is the Citizen variant:

 

 

Being hand-wind and 17 jewel, they seemed like a good and uncomplicated place to start. Both are 11.5 lignes.

Also, here is the HMT history page from their site: https://www.hmtwatches.in/9/about-us/history.htm

[Barsomn]

Our contact at the Dallas watch school got back to us. The two year program is being phased out in favor of a single year certification. I guess the back half of the course was in manufacturing components, which, at this point in the world of watch parts supply is a dwindling art.

It's harder to justify in a world where you can order something from across the globe and (for a price) get it within a week or less.

Fitting in with all the other big things in life (selling my house/renting out our current condo, getting married, moving on from my current job tactfully, etc.) the best time for all this would probably be to apply for the class of 2023. That seems like a long time but life has a way of sneaking up on you. I may apply for 2022 just to get a feel for the application process, even if I do not get in.

 

Just a quick update! I also have a broken HMT to work on, but more on that in another thread at another time.

 

Cheers.

[oldhippy]

What do they teach you in one year? 

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

What do they teach you in one year?

it's probably hard to tell until somebody goes through the program. we might be able to get a clue by looking at the other wostep schools that are free like the one in Florida. They list a two-year 3,000-Hour WOSTEP Program but they also list a WOSTEP Watch Service Technician Program which is probably very similar if not the same thing. 

4 hours ago, Barsomn said:

I guess the back half of the course was in manufacturing components, which, at this point in the world of watch parts supply is a dwindling art.

dwindling or not it's what they like to do they like to have the students work on manufacturing develop hand eye coordination. somewhere on YouTube there is a Swiss school it takes three years to go through with a heck of a lot a manufacturing and not really that much watch repair. But if the schools paying the bill hoping to fill a position in their service center then they may have decided they really don't need that much manufacturing. or basically they can get way more people through one your programs to fill the needed positions. Because supposedly it is a worldwide shortage of watchmakers as all the old-timers retire.

https://www.nghayekwatchmakingschool.com/The-Education/1%2c800-hour-Watch-Service-Technician-s-Course.html

 

[Barsomn]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

What do they teach you in one year? 

Don't worry it'll only take me a year to find out. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Barsomn
Forgot to include quote.

[Barsomn]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it's probably hard to tell until somebody goes through the program. we might be able to get a clue by looking at the other wostep schools that are free like the one in Florida. They list a two-year 3,000-Hour WOSTEP Program but they also list a WOSTEP Watch Service Technician Program which is probably very similar if not the same thing. 

dwindling or not it's what they like to do they like to have the students work on manufacturing develop hand eye coordination. somewhere on YouTube there is a Swiss school it takes three years to go through with a heck of a lot a manufacturing and not really that much watch repair. But if the schools paying the bill hoping to fill a position in their service center then they may have decided they really don't need that much manufacturing. or basically they can get way more people through one your programs to fill the needed positions. Because supposedly it is a worldwide shortage of watchmakers as all the old-timers retire.

https://www.nghayekwatchmakingschool.com/The-Education/1%2c800-hour-Watch-Service-Technician-s-Course.html

 

Valid on both points, I am still doing my research and asking questions as information online is scarce.

That shortage of watchmakers is a hopeful prospect if I am able to reach my aspirations in this field. Though a shame that a generation's worth of knowledge could be lost so quickly.

[Michael1962]

Welcome to the forum Miles.

I am looking at the distance learning course via the BHI in the UK. I am also reconsidering the course that Mark Lovick (CEO of this forum) runs. There is no longer any school teaching either watchmaking or clockmaking in Australia.  

[Barsomn]

1 hour ago, Michael1962 said:

Welcome to the forum Miles.

I am looking at the distance learning course via the BHI in the UK. I am also reconsidering the course that Mark Lovick (CEO of this forum) runs. There is no longer any school teaching either watchmaking or clockmaking in Australia.  

Thanks!

That sounds frustrating, and I can relate to frustrations that you cannot get hands on training with someone in the same way you would at a specialized school or with an apprenticeship. 

I've been working on those HMT movements purchased and shown above, but it's pretty slow going and I still do not have an efficient method for cleaning movements once disassembled.

Still, I appreciate your commitment for continuing, even with a lack of options.

[Barsomn]

Larger update, more of a chronicle for my own records.

So: true watchmaking school has been back-burnered, for now.

My parents are filing for divorce. This puts me in an odd situation where I need to retain my property for now (had planned to sell so I could fund our move to the greater Dallas/Ft. Worth area) so my dad can live there while they sort the details out. As this is happening, I do not want to put my family through the immense stress of moving to a new state and cutting off my income while I get through schooling.

I am also still getting married in Oct. so maybe things will change once that license goes through. My fiancée is supportive of decisions but this feels like the correct choice for where we are at.

 

The passion though, has not faded. I am steadily getting tools and consumables for holidays and through regular purchases. Finally have my first piece of kit from Bergeon in the form of a 4040 movement holder. Lots of Rodico, a nice technician's precision screwdriver kit, etc.

I inherited a bunch of watches from a family member that passed away and have spent my limited free time taking those apart. Also got the HMT watches and spare movements in and have been disassembling/reassembling. Still need to master cleaning and lubricating mechanical movements for a proper service but I have gotten pretty good at regulation and simple methods for restoration. At least I am growing confidence in the mechanical side. 

The other inadvertent effect of all this is that most of my friends have come out of the woodwork with a watch or two that they need repaired, or just looked at. I'm proud to be a resource as "that guy who works on watches" as it helps me build pride in my work as I slowly and carefully build my skillset.

One of those is an independent project. I am in the works of restoring a pin-lever movement promotional watch with the Baumgartner 582 (digital) movement which was handed down to my father in-law by his dad at the release of the Ford Mustang II.

More details in my other thread: 

 

Another project I have open is to restore a mirrored polish to an Orient I purchased that just didn't bond well with me and will be resold. That will be my first time using diamond paste with my rotary tool as other methods were... less fruitful.

 

Anyway, I'm sure I can add to my own thread later just wanted to make a note about why my lofty goals of attending watchmaking school were flaunted by the realness of life.

I will continue to independently build skills, and maybe look into a "new age" watchmaking course like one done online. There are plenty of great resources out there (including this very forum) but I would want to be established and certified in at least some aspect before accepting jobs from the public and not just friends/family.

 

Cheers!

-Miles

 

[Michael1962]

Welcome to the forum. Enjoy.

Best of luck with everything that you are hoping to do. I think much the same and you. Who is gin to pass on their smart watch to their kids. Chances are that they will certainly bo out of date software wise and will switch on, but that's it.

I grew up in a place where a watchmaking course was just not available. I wish I had followed up to find out what I could have done and had chased after that.

Best of luck to you.