Identify these parts?

[Sjk4x4]

I’m going through some old parts I received a while ago and I’ve not seen any parts like this before and would like to ask if others have?

Is it a staff possibly with the gear removed?

 

thanks

[oldhippy]

Looks like pallet pivots. Many old watches and pocket watches had types of pallets fitted so when a pivot got damaged or broken you just taped out the complete old one and inserted a complete new one. 

[Sjk4x4]

that makes sense. Its a good idea, although it seems like it would be difficult to get the height right on the pallet. Thanks for the help

[jdm]

8 hours ago, Sjk4x4 said:

Is it a staff possibly with the gear removed?

There are no "gears" on a balance. 

[oldhippy]

6 hours ago, Sjk4x4 said:

that makes sense. Its a good idea, although it seems like it would be difficult to get the height right on the pallet. Thanks for the help

That's the idea of have a selection of them you had different heights and pivot size. Here is a picture of one I found on the net. 

[clockboy]

Agree with OH they are blank pocket watch pallet pivots. I purchased a selection of of pocket watch balance staffs from Cousins a few years ago and it also had some of these. They can be modified on a lathe to fit which I have done.

[canthus]

Didn't know these were available.  I have an old (circa 1854) English Fusee pocket watch which has a broken pivot on the lever.

I broke it myself (horror). I had rebuilt watch and all was fine, then decided I would dis-assemble again to take some pics.  Big mistake, trying to align so many pivots in a full plate is very hard, and the inevitable happened.  I don't have a lathe to make a new one so put it in the 'for later drawer where it remains.

The overall length including both pivots is 4.8mm (0.189 in).  The pivot diam is 0.19mm (0.007 in) and pivot length is 0.64 mm (0.025 in).    I reassembled the watch with the broken pivot so that I knew where all the bits were, so I would need to dis-assemble again to measure staff diam. 

Based on the above info, do any of the members or the OP have one that could be a possible fit ??

 

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, canthus said:

I have an old (circa 1854) English Fusee pocket watch

you want to look very carefully at the Arbor and see if it looks like it has threads on one end? The reason why is a lot of the earlier pocket watches did not use friction Arbors but a screw in Arbor.

[oldhippy]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you want to look very carefully at the Arbor and see if it looks like it has threads on one end? The reason why is a lot of the earlier pocket watches did not use friction Arbors but a screw in Arbor.

That is right. 

[clockboy]

3 hours ago, canthus said:

Didn't know these were available.  I have an old (circa 1854) English Fusee pocket watch which has a broken pivot on the lever.

I broke it myself (horror). I had rebuilt watch and all was fine, then decided I would dis-assemble again to take some pics.  Big mistake, trying to align so many pivots in a full plate is very hard, and the inevitable happened.  I don't have a lathe to make a new one so put it in the 'for later drawer where it remains.

The overall length including both pivots is 4.8mm (0.189 in).  The pivot diam is 0.19mm (0.007 in) and pivot length is 0.64 mm (0.025 in).    I reassembled the watch with the broken pivot so that I knew where all the bits were, so I would need to dis-assemble again to measure staff diam. 

Based on the above info, do any of the members or the OP have one that could be a possible fit ??

 

I have checked my stock and I found one the correct length 4.8mm but the diameter of the shaft is 0.98mm. It might fit but without a lathe it will be difficult.
 

[canthus]

Thanks for your comments, I'll remove the lever again as soon as I can (bit busy at the moment) and see if it has screw thread (JohnR725)(don't think so from memory and looking at  my pics) and also measure the shaft diam (clockboy).  I can possibly ream the lever to fit shaft if near size and pivots diam is ok.  I'll post again when I have answers.  Thanks again.

[clockboy]

The fitting of it has to be precise to say the least reaming out the lever is not a good idea. This is another of the measurements that will have to be correct,

 

[Sjk4x4]

9 hours ago, jdm said:

There are no "gears" on a balance. 

Ah, conventions still elude me. Gear,wheel,arbor,staff,pivot- appear to not be interchangeable 

[canthus]

17 minutes ago, clockboy said:

The fitting of it has to be precise to say the least reaming out the lever is not a good idea. This is another of the measurements that will have to be correct,

 

Thanks clockboy,  my thinking was that if the pivot diams are ok, and the length is ok, then it just needs the shaft to be correct size diam.  If that diam is very near the old one, and, as it is likely an interference fit, then if there is sufficient material on the lever then a light reaming might suffice.  I agree a lathe would be better but I am only a retired engineer hobbyist and too long in years to be investing in new expensive tools !!

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, canthus said:

Thanks clockboy,  my thinking was that if the pivot diams are ok, and the length is ok, then it just needs the shaft to be correct size diam.  If that diam is very near the old one, and, as it is likely an interference fit, then if there is sufficient material on the lever then a light reaming might suffice.  I agree a lathe would be better but I am only a retired engineer hobbyist and too long in years to be investing in new expensive tools !!

The general rule is to modify the lesser component if needed. So if replacing a balance staff, maybe you find that the replacement is too big to fit in the balance, or roller table. You would modify the staff to fit; otherwise down the line when it needs another staff, and the watchmaker got lucky with a proper staff, the reamed out parts no longer fit.

 

Also, with a pallet fork the only convenient way to open the hole is with a cutting broach, which leaves a tapered hole. It should be cylindrical for a proper fit. The interference is very small, like a few microns if a steel fork, maybe 5 microns for a brass one (many are brass but look like steel as they are nickel plated).

 

Anyway replacing pallet arbors is fiddly work and if you've gotten to that point you probably have a lathe, haha.

[canthus]

I fully take on board what you are saying about the purity of repair. However will a future watchmaker ever find the 'correct' staff for a 154 year old item ??  Surely any future replacement will require a 'special' part being made anyway, so previous mods to staff or lever will be irrelevant?  Just playing the devils advocate here.  Maybe will have a try or just leave in the drawer. Maybe the only value in the watch is the silver case!