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key wound pocket watch second wheel removal


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Hi Clock and Watchmakers,

I got a key wound pocket watch and I don't know how to remove the second wheel from its plate and i wanted. Is this things fraction fitted? How could I remove it without damaging it?

My best regards,

lui

ps: note that somebody has replaced a jewel with a home made bushing seen on the third pic

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Edited by luiazazrambo
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usually don't see them like this? I have attached a picture way back when you were disassembling it would've looked like this. Staking set would be preferred you can use a bench block. Make sure the square part goes into a hole and you would normally push on the protruding pin that sticking out. although now that the canon pinion is off you should build a just push it out as there shouldn't be any thing holding it in place?

I suppose technically there is something possibly holding it in place sometimes ill be a slight curvature to the PN as that's where the friction is it's not on the end where the canon pinion goes as that's supposed to friction on really tight.

 

Canon pinion pin.JPG

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Hi John,

thank you for answering me. I posted a closeup which might help, i desperately need some success here and I don't want to brake this. I also think that something is wrong with this setup as there was no protruding pin when the canon pinion was on. Yes the watch came with no minute hand. PN= pinion?

I have a mainspring issue, a mainspring barrel issue and a rubbed in jewel issue with this pocket watch already. Note that I have never ever serviced a pocket watch successfully before. I had failed attempts though.

Best regards,

lui

IMG_0072.JPG

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I would like to try to help.  May I ask some questions first?:

- I see three holes in the bridge plate surrounding the second wheel's square key dog.  Are those screw holes?  For a screw-set jewel bearing?

- The wheel is all riveted together, so the square key dog is too large to be simply pushed through the pivot hole in the bridge plate.  It must be applied to the shaft from the other side, after the shaft was inserted.  Can you tell if the square key dog is only pressed onto the shaft end, or if it is pinned, or if some other method was used?  Ideally,  the square key winding dog should be of one piece with the shaft, but I cannot see yet how that can be the case here.

Edited by KarlvonKoln
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15 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

PN= pinion?

sorry about I use dictation software and it doesn't like me at times which means we get goofy wording. in this particular case the word was supposed to be pin.

38 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

I also think that something is wrong with this setup as there was no protruding pin when the canon pinion was on

occasionally I've seen this staking set would be really nice here. You can use a bench block but whatever you do you have to make sure everything is flat because of anything as protruding on the other plates you risk damaging stuff like of the balance bridges farther out in the main plate you to break the balance staff. Another way you can do it is the holding your hand? Then gently whack it with a hammer.

If nothing is sticking out then staking sets nice pointy punch gently push in the center to get it to start to come out. Because trying to pull the canon pinion off this friction on can be a challenge.

to give you an idea I was looking and were lucky I have something on the bench. You'll notice that the  end was protruding out of the canon pinion. In this particular case I guess held it in my hand because it wasn't convenient arrested on anything and gently whacked the protruding pin. You'll see a series of photographs this should be helpful.

In your particular case put the plates back together again the risk damaging things with that flopping around and trying to push it out without the right supports you still risk damaging things.

Then if you want absolute proof that you do have a pin with a squarehead put something on the other end. I have your picture slightly modified notice where I drew the line that's where the pin is coming out. If you stick something on the pin parts and rotate the square you should see it rotate hold the center wheel while you're doing it the center wheel is basically a tube.

you will note that mine is slightly different than yours in that the washer is in a brass part. That's so that when you're using your key you hopefully don't slip and scratch the plates up.

 

41 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

I have a mainspring issue, a mainspring barrel issue and a rubbed in jewel issue with this pocket watch already. Note that I have never ever serviced a pocket watch successfully before. I had failed attempts though.

the problem basically with anything vintage is the longer it's been in existence the more likely people worked on it that didn't know what they were doing that means all sorts of interesting problems occur from that alone. Also vintage has the problem of to some degree sort of almost being handmade usually in the case of pocket watches. Sometimes if you look carefully usually on the dial side you can see with a scribe the lines to figure out where they need to drill the holes. It also unfortunately means that you can't necessarily get off-the-shelf components.

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square pin comes out.JPG

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Thank you all. I really appreciate it. Now it is taken apart. The bridge is dead flat, i gently hit the shaft with my hammer. Barely touched it really and it came apart. My theory is that it was already moved a bit possibly by a key jammed on the square. It would explain why the minute hand lost and why was not protruding pin above the canon pinion.

I am going to post another set of questions about the mainspring now. Questions worth to discuss generally speaking in my opinion.

IMG_20210715_203023.jpg

Edited by luiazazrambo
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2 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

- I see three holes in the bridge plate surrounding the second wheel's square key dog.  Are those screw holes?  For a screw-set jewel bearing?

Just screw holes holding a tube in place for the hand set key.

IMG_20210715_203142.jpg

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1 minute ago, luiazazrambo said:

Just screw holes holding a tube in place for the hand set key.

IMG_20210715_203142.jpg

Oh right, it would have a tube.  I haven't done that many key wind & set movements, so I'm learning a few thing here too.  I did one that was pinned through the shaft, so I'd been wondering if this one was too.  But I see it is different.  Would you later be posting pics of the whole thing once it's back together? 

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12 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

 Would you later be posting pics of the whole thing once it's back together? 

Yes, it would be my pleasure to do so. I am as always optimistic (until i enter a door opened by ruined hairsprings or snapped off screwheads) so I have already cleaned the case and the dial. Both were very dirty I even thought that I cannot save the dial, but it turned out ok. Plus I ordered a new glass. (the old one was intact but very scratchy and I do not have the materials to polish glass)

The most challenging part will be to find a rub in jewel and to place it. The old one was so scattered that it was simply washed out from its hole during the cleaning. 

IMG_20210715_205020.jpg

Edited by luiazazrambo
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38 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

The most challenging part will be to find a rub in jewel and to place it.

I don't suppose you have access to a watchmaker's lathe? If so it's easy to modify a modern jewel to become a burnished in jewel but only if you have a lathe

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13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose you have access to a watchmaker's lathe? If so it's easy to modify a modern jewel to become a burnished in jewel but only if you have a lathe

Well I have a modelling lathe, an unimat 3, not sure if that would be ok, probably it would. I never held a burnished in jewel in my hand so I can only rely on pictures posted on internet. I like this page: Jewelling & JewellingTools I saw a video how to modify a modern jewel to become a burnished one. Actually it was posted by one of our member on youtube who sadly don't do any watchmaking any longer due to family commitments. Found it: szbalogh's method  He is using a dremel tool. What else would I need? That diamond paste?

Edited by luiazazrambo
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On 7/15/2021 at 9:15 AM, luiazazrambo said:

Note that I have never ever serviced a pocket watch successfully before. I had failed attempts though.

I'm rather curious about the above quoted? How many failed attempts and why did they fail?

 

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My watchmaking career started in 2019 as a hobby after I found a WWW Eterna dirty dozen watch in the soil as a metal detectorist. Probably some might know John Senior in the UK who restored it for me. He is actually the owner of http://www.obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/ . I see its closed now I hope he is ok, he has retired from watchmaking (not accepting work from customers any longer). I knew nothing about watches and clocks (i am an electric engineer by degree) but the result amazed me and the more I learnt about watchmaking the more excited I got.

Before and after pictures:

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More about it here: how I started

I am happy that I can occasionally play with watchmaking - now i can reassemble timex m21s and m22s with closed eyes. 🙂 - and I don't have to accept work from customers and make the living out of it and I am sad at the same time that I could not learn more about it as a watchmaker from the start, I am 44 now. 

I am actually going to try to answer your question. The answer is between 0 and 3 depending how we define failure and if we accept travel clocks as pocket watches. 🙂

At the beginning I tried to play with alarm clocks and clocks as they seemed to be big enough to actually be able to see the parts and what I was doing. I tried to service two of the alarm clocks which were close to pocket watches if I think about their size and constructions as how they were built.

no1 failure: Alarm clock nr1. Somehow I managed not to put something back in place properly - i cant remember now as what part, but that time it was clear- and the barrel holding the spring for the alarm function released its power in an instant. I literally felt the wheel teeth bouncing on my chest. So no alarm any longer. We can think of it as half success as it tick and tocks though.

no2 failure: The second alarm clock. I managed to snap off the screwhead of one of the screw. I was desperate to correct it and to make it work so I bought a bergeon screw extractor. I only managed to damage the main plate with it... the screw is still there.... i was devastated. It is still in one of my container and still causing nightmares....

no3 failure: I bought a silver pocket watch from eBay and I took it apart, but it was in a bad condition both the case and the movement so I decided not to put it back together again. Still in one of the container waiting for me to change my mind about it. No damage was made.

Every time I do some irreversible damage I feel really bad. One of my timex m21s were on my bench on the timing machine while I was working. It was cleaned lubricated had a wonderful performance despite being about 70 years old and pin lever. So i tried to regulate it with my tweezers while working reaching the microphone stand over my computer.  My tweezers slipped within the fraction of the second they sunk down grabbed the HS I pulled my tweezers out with the HS together again.... in less than a sec.. i was literally sick... could not go back to it for about 2 days.

Now I cried out myself. Happy reading. 🙂

 

Edited by luiazazrambo
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not quite the story I was expecting so that's probably good. then I do not regard alarm clocks or any other clock as a pocket watch their very different yes they have gears they have a mainspring but they're not the same as a pocket watch.

Then pocket watches for that matter aren't exactly large wristwatches either.

5 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

So i tried to regulate it with my tweezers while working reaching the microphone stand over my computer. 

I don't understand about the microphone on the computer? I do understand the timing machines sometimes reject watches and that's usually very unpleasant. On another discussion group somewhere in the universe within the last two weeks somebody had their newly staffed pocket watch thrown to the ground by the vicious timing machine. I think it's unneeded new staff at least one balance jewel and the person will get back to us probably in a couple weeks. Usually not always the time is ripe seen microphones throwing watches under the ground is because you're holding something not quite right. Like holding pocket watches in the microphone is problematic that's what happened to this person I had a witschi timing machine with an automatic microphone throw my pocket watch on the floor someday I'll get around to putting a staff. So yes it's common the timing machines don't like watches and occasionally throw them somewhere undesirable.

 

 

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Apologies, I was supposed to write travel clocks not alarm clocks. I also have to say that english is not my native language and I often struggle with it. 

So when I was working, sitting in front of my computer (i am in IT now) i had a look at the timing machine and decided that I would regulate the watch quickly, so I reached out to the microphone over my computer. The regulator arm was a tight fit and it was not comfortable to reach it anyway... shortcuts, rush work against the watchmaker... and happened what happened....

This is one of the travel clock I talked about, where I snapped off the click spring screw head, so not main plate but the train bridge/plate.

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It spent the last 2 years in this container as you can see it on the pic as a reminder of my failure. 🙂 I am not a masochist by the way. 🙂 

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5 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

I also have to say that english is not my native language and I often struggle with it.

don't worry your English is quite good with all seem to struggle with something related to this I use dictation software I talk to my computer sometimes it listens to me and puts down whatever I'm saying and sometimes it doesn't makes for interesting reading which occasionally people like to point out much to my annoyance.

5 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

So when I was working, sitting in front of my computer (i am in IT now) i had a look at the timing machine and decided that I would regulate the watch quickly, so I reached out to the microphone over my computer. The regulator arm was a tight fit and it was not comfortable to reach it anyway... shortcuts, rush work against the watchmaker... and happened what happened....

this is where you're supposed to have what I sometimes call the little voice in your head. The little voice is supposed to warn you that this is stupid and something bad might happen then you're supposed to listen not that you always do is enough ways to have accidents just doing whatever you're supposed to do

5 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

This is one of the travel clock I talked about, where I snapped off the click spring screw head, so not main plate but the train bridge/plate.

then this is a large pocket watch. Your screw appears to broken off in a plate that has no other steel parts? If that's true removing it is effortlessly if you would like?

if you go to link below you'll find out about Alum and interesting substance found in the spice rack of a lot of stores. Except it's not a spice in cooking I believe it's used to make pickles. It's been discussed on this group before but it is a really interesting property for us which is even mentioned below. I'm like whole and entire section out of Wikipedia notice it uses the word drill and you have a screw but a screw has similar properties to a drill in other words that both made out of steel the plate is made out of brass and the plating is usually gold so providing there is no other steel on this plate you could boil it in a concentrated bath of alum or even if you dropped it in the Elm and just let it sit for a long time it will dissolve the steel component out then you can go looking for new screw in a miscellaneous assortment of screws that you have to find or purchase.. Or in other words it's a really nice way of removing steel for brass without damaging the brass.

"Alum in the form of potassium aluminium sulphate or ammonium aluminium sulfate in a concentrated bath of hot water is regularly used by jewelers and machinists to dissolve hardened steel drill bits that have broken off in items made of aluminum, copper, brass, gold (any karat), silver (both sterling and fine) and stainless steel. This is because alum does not react chemically to any significant degree with any of these metals, but will corrode carbon steel. When heat is applied to an alum mixture holding a piece of work that has a drill bit stuck in it, if the lost bit is small enough, it can sometimes be dissolved / removed within hours."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum

 

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1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

the little voice in your head

I have one of these too. After the bad stuff has happened, I realise he was there all the time, warning me, but I just wasn't listening (again). And that sick feeling afterwards is very familiar. I guess we learn from it, eventually.

Alum. Remove the click spring first.

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I never regulated a watch the same way again since this accident happened however it was not a long time ago though. 

I heard about alum when I was looking for a solution, I shall try because if I win then it would be glorious. I feel like Atlas now.

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  • 1 month later...

So I was off for 6 weeks without playing with watches. I am back now and I made a little progress with this pocket watch. I managed to use a jacot tool first time in my life to bring the shape and shine of one of the badly misshaped pivot of the third wheel back to normal or close to normal, i don't have the sense yet to judge how imperfect or perfect it is but much much better then it was for sure. I also managed to open up the jewel seating and to find a jewel with the right hole size, the right outside diameter and it seems the thickness of it is also good, briefly assembled the train together. I ordered some diamond paste, lets hope I wont screw up the jewel and I can close the seating properly.

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Edited by luiazazrambo
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  • 2 weeks later...

I received the diamond paste, it does not take long to work on the edge (not sure if I removed enough material or not) but I had extreme difficulties to place the jewel on the end of a metal rod centered with shellac. Ended up doing it under my microscope with matches brought close to the metal rod and the jewel risking that I smoke the microscope lenses. Now I understand what is the purpose of the clear glass protecting lens  for microscopes. I might buy one, really cheap and protects the expensive microscope head. I wonder if I could use something else than shellac, it solidifies within a few second. Probably I should use a Bunsen burner and a  brass/copper plate instead. Here is the result, as you can see i did not manage to bring it to the center perfectly but probably it will do the job:

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I replaced the broken jewel (first time rub in one for me) for the third wheel, then I replaced the mainspring as it was set and about 1/3 shorter than it should have been. Then i put the thing together train and escapement and I am still not happy. I can see with my eyes that the amplitude is about 180 and fluctuates, the balance pivots have too much play and this is a cylinder escapement!!! Ohh dear...

 

Edited by luiazazrambo
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Okay, this is just one pivot of the balance, jewel hole is bad, end of the pivot looks bad, friction fit jewel was placed instead of rub in one and not sure if you notice, but the jewel itself moves in its seat as the pivot rubs against the jewel hole. What a challenge for me.

 

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Used the jacot tool again, result is not perfect but better than before, i hope so at least. 🙂 Ruined that nice curved shoulder of the balance pivot at the main plate side. Learnt a lot again, the tool came with the jacot tool measuring the pivot diameter is cheating, suggested that I have to use nr 15, but i had to go down to 9 to make things work. Figured out with my microscope and with my caliper after wasting a couple of hours spent in confusion. Caliper showed about 0.11 mm diameter, not sure if the jacot tool 15 would mean it is 0.15 mm or just a number.

Before:

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After:

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The pivot from the balance cock side cannot be perfected without reducing its diameter and I don't want to replace its jewel. I am looking for a rub in jewel / or modified friction fit jewel for the other one at the moment. Pushed out the old one.

Edited by luiazazrambo
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