Quartz Tester?

[bbwatch]

 

also looking for a 340.587 manual. BarryB

[ecodec]

On 2/20/2014 at 6:34 AM, Ashnz said:

Hello to all,

My name is Ash (from NZ). Im a watch enthusiast and trying to learn more about Horology.

I have been picking odd watch repair jobs here and there and self-learning.

Firstly, thanks a lot to Mark Lovick for uploading fantastic videos on youtube that are so simple to follow. Keep up the great work

Question - is there a way to diagnose quartz watch circuit using those test probes (that have an LED inbuilt) or perhaps using a multi-meter? For some watch movements such as Myota 2035, it makes sense to replace the whole movement. In other cases, it make sense to repair it (if possible).

Is there a way to narrow down the faults in quartz watch? For instance, if a watch is gaining/loosing time, it could be the quartz crystal out of freq etc. how can it be scanned appropriately?

Im not sure if its even possible or not. Hopefully I could get some help here.khz. 

Thanks a lot in advance

Ash

Hi Ash, you would need an Accurate frequency counter.  Look across the XTAL or from the XTAL OUT to the Batt+ve rail for 32768 Hz. (32.768 KHz) There is a Small Cap from XTAL out to the batt +v rail,  preset at the manufacturer for final trimming. You can slow the Osc down by making a gimmick Cap of say 6 twisted ECW turns tight together,  Solder it from XTAL ouput to +v rail or across the XTAL and then trim to length for the correct frequency. Good luck with this one .  Always set for a slight gain say 0.2 Secs/day. Early Quartz watches did have adjustment but not nowadays. You can only speed the Osc up by filing the actual XTAL element or changing the Osc trimming cap for one with less capacitance. I was an electronic engineer and I could not be bothered with this.  Always try cleaning the watch first or give it the line free treatment. I hope this is of help, Mike.

Edited June 18, 2018 by ecodec
More info.

[rogart63]

Have you check the horotec quartz tester out . Great little machine that can do lots of things. I was about to buy one when i worked on some quartz watches. But no i seldom do . https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/horotec-flashtest

[LittleWatchShop]

I watched this very good video today.

As an electrical engineer, I can see that a tool to make all of those measurements would be very straightforward to make--I could readily design the circuit.  However, the mechanical aspects (e.g., the pogo pins) would take some effort to copy (not hard, just effort) and then a nice case, etc.  The Witschi machine is a nice ergonomic user interface in a compact footprint.  Seems quite cool (under my breath...I want one).

Then I wonder...for a professional, what is the ROI for a $2500 machine that is for testing/repairing quartz watches?  How many customers do you have with a quartz watch needing repair?  Many quartz watches are made of cheap no-jewel movements that are just a few dollars to replace.  I have recently opened/seen a number of quality ETA quartz movements...but still...these movements (if replaced) do not appear to be very expensive.

OK, so if you have a shop where people come in for a battery change.  Maybe that is when you take the watch, run all of the tests, replace the battery and charge...dunno...$25.  Almost no material cost, some time cost, and the rest writes down the Witschi.  I could work through this business case analysis but will wait to hear from the professionals.

Looking forward to hearing from the professionals on this topic!

BTW, I want that Witschi Handy II.  I have more money than good sense, so who knows...we shall see.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Then I wonder...for a professional, what is the ROI for a $2500 machine that is for testing/repairing quartz watches?  How many customers do you have with a quartz watch needing repair? 

You have to think that these machines, as well other expensive ones, plus the need of filtered air, refrigerated lubricants storage, and other stuff possibly, are made mandatory by the big Swiss brands for watchmakers that want to be accredited as a service center. Expensive yes, but when you can start applying their service prices, even a an Euro 50,000 investment is justifiable. That is less than some cafe-bistro renovations.  Beside, capital cost goes (amortized) on the balance sheet for tax purposes.

[LittleWatchShop]

23 minutes ago, jdm said:

Beside, capital cost goes (amortized) on the balance sheet for tax purposes.

In the US, I can write off a capital cost in one tax year, so if I spent the 2.5k, the fed would subsidize roughly 30%, so my out of pocket is more like 1.75k. 

I suspect that the only quartz repairs that people would pay for would be for high-end watches.  I have no feel for what that market is like.  Most people I know either wear an apple watch or no watch at all.

[jdm]

45 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I suspect that the only quartz repairs that people would pay for would be for high-end watches.  I have no feel for what that market is like.  Most people I know either wear an apple watch or no watch at all.

Beside that a 5K or even a 20K watch is far from being high end, what I was trying to say is that having the full tools list that counts. The presence of a quartz tester is just a detail, but is needed for becoming official. I even know of a reputable independent watchmaker that has the Analyzer, his waiting list is very long and his prices are high. He can take both mechanical and quartz watches (most others are snob and won't touch quartz) for service or repair, and having the full arsenal at his disposition to do the best job. Also, machines attract and impress customers.

[LittleWatchShop]

31 minutes ago, jdm said:

I was trying to say

Ah...I get your point.

Indeed.  If you are going to service...you need the full complement of equipment.

[JohnR725]

if you really were a professional would this not be something better to have?

https://www.witschi.com/en/group-of-devices/measurement-of-electronic-watches/analyzer-q1/analyzer-q1.html

it does so much more and it has a nice color screen it even does mechanical watches it looks really impressive on your bench. so how do I know it looks impressive on your bench well it's sitting on my bench at work. The real question is how much use does it get? It doesn't work for tuning fork watches so I have to have my separate power supply and meter for that. Usually if I measuring coil resistance I grab my $20 DVM. Behind me as a really nifty witschi timing machine for mechanical watches with a microphone that rotates around so why should I even use this for mechanical watches although it does have the standard witschi microphone for mechanical watches.

if it's never being used why is it even on my bench? This is because the owner of the shop at one time had a much nicer shops spread out so this meant multiple of watchmakers could have timing machines. The real reason exist is he was attempting to get Swiss part 6 pounds which required fancy equipment. Like the $16,000 cleaning machine which does a really impressive job I'm not sure he could justify the 16,000 but since we haven't.

I think realistically the only way you could justify these machines if you were servicing high-end quartz watches then you should probably have one. But what's interesting today as people by what I perceived to be expensive wristwatches and inside is a five dollar quartz movement. Which means we do a heck of a lot of movement replacements. The only time we actually service a  quartz watch is if it's something that cannot be replaced as a replacement is no longer available. But seeing as how I'm the only one of services the quartz watches I can't actually remember when the last one I actually serviced was I'm sure I did one this year maybe? Fortunately if you're a company trying to please the Swiss impressing them with all your expensive tools to get their parts then you don't have to justify the existence of these machines.

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

Yup, the Q1 is even more "neato!"  You have shined the light pretty clearly on the issue.  The tool (at its cost) really does not make sense for the most part. (but I still want one...lol)

How much is that Q1?  Julesborel has it but "call for price."

Edited September 6, 2021 by LittleWatchShop

[Plato]

I can't imagine what the Witschi can do better than bog standard electronics kit other than having everything in place in one simple package. If you compare it to the cost of a decent Tektronix scope and Fluke multimeter when new there's not much difference. However, I bet the Witschi holds its value for an age after the scope and multimeter have been dismissed of as old tech. 

[JohnR725]

29 minutes ago, Plato said:

Tektronix scope

I always remember the sticker shock of a brand-new timing machine that spit out paper versus the cost of a really nice Tektronix oscilloscope. On the other hand how many people even back then were buying timing machines brand-new versus the electronics world buying oscilloscopes?

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How much is that Q1?  Julesborel has it but "call for price."

I'll have to remember to ask what they paid for it. I only remember the really expensive stuff like the cleaning machine to this always really impressive to say that cost $16,000. on the other hand does do a really nice job of cleaning and makes all kinds of nice interesting sounds when it's a vacuum pulling all those fluids into its chamber.

then if you want to compare prices what about this this is a bargain compared to the witschi?

https://www.esslinger.com/horotec-flash-tester-quartz-watch-tester/

 

[Plato]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

then if you want to compare prices what about this this is a bargain compared to the witschi?

If money were no object then I'd buy a suite of Witschi equipment.

However, the closest I can afford is what I picked up on ebay a few years ago. A Portescap 5007. It has three probes so one for +V, one for gnd and the other to take measurements. I just had to make some leads for my PSU and scope. Under £30 including the connectors:

[JohnD]

The alternative, when working on quartz watches, is one of these......still gives a lot of information, despite being over 40 years old.....

[LittleWatchShop]

Lots of good input from you guys.

It seems to me that when working on a quartz watch the main thing I would want to do is measure currents in the various modes and measure coil resistance.  That would tell me if there were an issue with the train and/or stepper.  If the indication is the train wheels, then a cleaning may be in order.  If the coil resistance is off, then it can be replaced.  Other than those, you are not going to replace the crystal. If the watch is dead you can replace the entire electronics, or replace the movement.

Measuring the accuracy seems to have no value--what do I do if it is off?  There is no adjustment, right?  The adjustment is stored in OTP/EE and can only be changed if EE and what tool do I need for that?  It would be movement specific.

So, at the end of the day, I think I just need to measure currents.

[Plato]

I hooked up a multimeter between the power supply and power to the module to measure current.

I have replaced a couple of crystal oscillators to get a quartz running, the only problem is that sometimes a modern crystal isn't the same shape as an old one as seen in the photos. Mine is the top one (original crystal), the other I got off the internet.

There is an adjustment, I think it's a variable capacitor to tune the oscillator circuit - also shown in the photos. Not sure if they bother with more modern watches?

[LittleWatchShop]

30 minutes ago, Plato said:

There is an adjustment, I think it's a variable capacitor to tune the oscillator circuit - also shown in the photos. Not sure if they bother with more modern watches?

These are vintage quartz watches. The date code on the first one is 1972.  For sure, I can see replacing crystals on these because they can be tuned ("pulled" as we say) with the variable capacitor.  The modern quartz watches (at least some of them) have programmable memory on board the IC which is used to make the adjustments.  There are no adjustments on these.  If you replace the crystal on one of them, It will not be as accurate as it was before...but it will at least work.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

So, at the end of the day, I think I just need to measure currents.

probably the most important is the ability to measure the current but? It's also nice to have a variable voltage power supply. One of the tests when servicing quartz watches is the see how low in voltage you can go and still have the watch run.

1 hour ago, Plato said:

There is an adjustment, I think it's a variable capacitor to tune the oscillator circuit - also shown in the photos. Not sure if they bother with more modern watches?

usually all the early quartz watches had a trimmer capacitor for regulation purposes.  modern watches the quartz crystal usually oscillates fast and they use some sort of digital regulation system. Program at the factory either one time or with a eeprom. Either way it doesn't really matter to us the timing machines that used to be able to program these only existed over a narrow window of time and I don't think they ever release the programming algorithms. On the other hand if you do have a timing machine that can pick up the quartz crystal oscillation it's nice to know that it's actually oscillating at somewhere near the correct frequency.

 

witschi Knowledge Quartz Watch.pdf

[nickelsilver]

We actually learned (in the late 90s) to switch out quartz canisters and so forth. I remember thinking "no one will ever pay enough for this to happen" at that time. I finally did solder in a variable capacitor a few years ago on a watch, for a watchmaker friend who doesn't know how to solder, on a watch that was worth it.

 

Witschi stuff is true industrial grade pro stuff. I don't have any quartz testing equipment, but my SS1 for mechanicals has conservatively around 20,000 cycles on the automatic mic and it looks and works like new 14 years later. 7500 bucks and worth every penny. For quartz testing of coils and current consumption I think anyone light versed in electronics can get around Witschi with a decent Fluke.

[Plato]

1 hour ago, LittleWatchShop said:

These are vintage quartz watches. The date code on the first one is 1972.  For sure, I can see replacing crystals on these because they can be tuned ("pulled" as we say) with the variable capacitor.  The modern quartz watches (at least some of them) have programmable memory on board the IC which is used to make the adjustments.  There are no adjustments on these.  If you replace the crystal on one of them, It will not be as accurate as it was before...but it will at least work.

'72 from the Motorola chip? Yes it's a Girard-Perregaux from that era. 

Getting it to work is better than nothing, it's next to impossible to find a circuit for some old models. 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, Plato said:

'72 from the Motorola chip?

Yes, got from the date code.  Week 17 in 1972.

[JohnR725]

if you're looking for a little history on quartz watches or electric watches there's a book found at the link below.

website is interesting in that if you click on the tab of contents you get a list of the contents of the book. Click on each of the ease and you get the text from the book. Then at the bottom of the page there is a link to the photograph associated with the pictures found in the book.

https://doensen.home.xs4all.nl/index.html

https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Modern-Wristwatch-Design-1950-1983/dp/905349135X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Pieter+Doensen&qid=1631047366&sr=8-1

[Plato]

I've got a copy of Doensen's book, I purchased it direct from his website so I got it signed by him too 

There's another good book covering the same topic:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electrifying-Wristwatch-Lucien-F-Trueb/dp/0764343041

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, Plato said:

I've got a copy of Doensen's book, I purchased it direct from his website so I got it signed by him too 

nice that he signed your book. out of curiosity looking at mine I don't see a signature. On the other hand mine got personalized in another way?

15 minutes ago, Plato said:

There's another good book covering the same topic:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electrifying-Wristwatch-Lucien-F-Trueb/dp/0764343041

I've seen your book recommendation before I don't have a copy. Strangely enough I probably wasn't paying attention or just wasn't thinking about it this time one of the authors jumped out which is Gunther Ramm. If you look at Peter's book you'll find that he's the first person that he thanks for helping with his book. Then there's a whole bunch of other people for which my name is in there also. The world of electrical horology tends to be relatively small as typical watch collectors view things that have wires batteries or integrated circuits as the work of the devil.

[Plato]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

On the other hand mine got personalized in another way?

Interesting...

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

for which my name is in there also.

more interesting...

 

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The world of electrical horology tends to be relatively small as typical watch collectors view things that have wires batteries or integrated circuits as the work of the devil.

Give it time (pun intended!) I've noticed that the most common profession on here and the BHI is Electrical/Electronics Engineering so it might be an outdated generalisation?