How do I smooth pallet fork horns ?

[mikepilk]

Whilst trying to find the cause of poor amplitude, I noticed that one of the pallet horns was bent on a Seiko 5126 movement.

Whilst straightening it, I've marked the inside edge.  Of course, I'd like to have it as smooth as possible, so what's the technique to smooth them ?

It's much to small for a file/stone/wet and dry. Maybe roughen the edge of an old screwdriver blade and rub that ?

 

 

[Klassiker]

There are some mini degussit stones available which might be just what you need.

[JohnR725]

the absolute best would be to replace it. Then depending upon how bad it is you just want to burnish the material if you do anything to change the shape that's going to really screw things up.

the problem of having too many books is to remember which one I saw something in? The problem may have with burnishing or doing anything is there's a guard pin in the way. So whatever you use if it goes through has to be super thin. Somewhere saw a picture of where they used a mainspring and they must've lightly filed to make it like a burnished or so it is little bit a texture. But then they held it in like a blow so each end is being pulled on and use that the burnished the inside. But anything beyond light burnishing you're going to really have an issue.

[mikepilk]

I'll roughen the side of an old screwdriver blade and try to burnish it.

How critical is the width and angle?  Probably quite critical.

If all else fails (although this is not a common Seiko movement), Cousins have spares for a reasonable price (one reason I like Seiko )

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

How critical is the width and angle?  Probably quite critical

unfortunately your answered your own question. The slot has to be nice and smooth without notches for the roller jewel to catch in. The size or the width is critical otherwise you'll have to change the roller jewel to match. The angle the horn is critical. I give you were to shorten the ends that would change things. Simplistically everything involved with the escapement is critical that it be right for maximum performance. Sometimes you get by with a little bit so maybe it might be better not to make the fork perfect if you can't get it taken care of just see how it does rather than trying to make it perfect and destroying it perhaps

we should probably look up and see how many forks would interchange with this sometimes pallet forks tend to be more generic than the watch itself it's possible that perhaps another Seiko pallet fork would work hopefully

[mikepilk]

19 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

we should probably look up and see how many forks would interchange with this sometimes pallet forks tend to be more generic than the watch itself it's possible that perhaps another Seiko pallet fork would work hopefully

I'll try the original without any smoothing, and if that isn't satisfactory, then the genuine part 301.125 from Cousins is only about $16 

(BTW this isn't a movement I've seen before: when I get a new movement I always look it up on rafft , but it's not there, and it's not any any of the databases I use for lift angle, I guess it's around 52 deg?)

[JohnR725]

let me know if you want a PDF of the parts list I have that. then the base caliber is 5106. Looks like I may have service information on that and I have a separate color lubrication guide.

Then the reason why you can't find the lift angle is that something relatively new. Yes they knew it when they designed it but they weren't readily available timing machines like there are now so there was no need to publish that. So basically that's a relatively new thing. but using the default of 52° should work fine.

[VWatchie]

Sorry for being OT, but whenever I hear the word Seiko I come to think of my pretty bad experience of trying to replace the mainspring of the only Seiko and the only Orient I've ever serviced. In both cases I replaced the mainspring with a Generale Ressorts spring and the power reserve deteriorated beyond acceptable. Yes, I experimented with several types of Moebius braking greases and also Kluber p125, and I also tried to modify the bridle, but to no avail. So, I ended up using the beat but still much better working original mainspring.

So anyway, if I may ask, OT as I am, will you be replacing the mainspring and if so, how will you deal with it. Getting hold of an original mainspring or a barrel complete for a Seiko (not to mention Orient) seems near impossible in my experience, even for the calibres still in production, or maybe I've been looking in the wrong places? Thanks!

[JohnR725]

56 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I come to think of my pretty bad experience of trying to replace the mainspring of the only Seiko and the only Orient I've ever serviced. In both cases I replaced the mainspring with a Generale Ressorts spring and the power reserve deteriorated beyond acceptable.

I find our experiences interesting? Sometime back where we had a another watchmaker a so-called head watchmaker. I was doing a Seiko don't remember which one normally I don't do Seiko's. when I came to the mainspring and I'm guessing we reuse the old spring I just don't remember. I asked about the breaking grease because I hadn't used it in a long time I figured the head watchmaker would know such things? Never assume that had watchmakers actually know what the heck they're doing. so I was told to use the which is all we had Kluber p125 place a ring around the entire inside of the barrel not the spots like Omega recommends. What I was manually winding the ratchet wheel and I reach the end I thought it was a break the head of the screw off. So they kinda have an opposite experience of that stuff is really sticky?

One of the things that may be came up in one of the other discussions on the group is? It's possible that the original Seiko breaking spring is physically stronger than the replacement spring's. But still a whole purpose the breaking grease is the hold and it seems like it should of worked?

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Getting hold of an original mainspring or a barrel complete for a Seiko (not to mention Orient) seems near impossible in my experience

occasionally a the mainsprings have shown up on eBay but if they do they disappear super superfast. Remember were estimating a job once I looked I said there's a whole bunch a mainsprings somewhere in the planets and then later we look they're all gone. I think that's because they were original mainsprings in the factory package. So they were out there you're right there really really hard to get there not impossible to get if you can wait long enough maybe.

[mikepilk]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

let me know if you want a PDF of the parts list I have that. then the base caliber is 5106. Looks like I may have service information on that and I have a separate color lubrication guide.

Thanks @JohnR725 but I had no problem finding the parts lists for 5106 and 5126

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Sorry for being OT, but whenever I hear the word Seiko I come to think of my pretty bad experience of trying to replace the mainspring of the only Seiko and the only Orient I've ever serviced. In both cases I replaced the mainspring with a Generale Ressorts spring and the power reserve deteriorated beyond acceptable. Yes, I experimented with several types of Moebius braking greases and also Kluber p125, and I also tried to modify the bridle, but to no avail. So, I ended up using the beat but still much better working original mainspring.

So anyway, if I may ask, OT as I am, will you be replacing the mainspring and if so, how will you deal with it. Getting hold of an original mainspring or a barrel complete for a Seiko (not to mention Orient) seems near impossible in my experience, even for the calibres still in production, or maybe I've been looking in the wrong places? Thanks!

The mainspring seemed OK, so I'm re-using it. As expected, the barrel was full of black goo when I opened it. 

I don't have any Kluber, so use Moebius 8213 on the barrel wall. Most of my Seiko's have had acceptable power reserve, but I have struggled with a couple. Roughening the barrel wall helped.

I haven't run this movement for a period yet - the only way to wind it is with a screwdriver on the crown wheel screw, so it's hard to tell how much resistance there is. I've a feeling it may be slipping too soon ....

[JohnR725]

1 minute ago, mikepilk said:

so I'm re-using

out of curiosity it be nice if you in a micrometer otherwise were stuck with a veneer caliper but we do measure the thickness the mainspring and also the thickness of the little section of the breaking spring. Just because I'm curious about the thicknesses that you have versus what whatever we look up and just for future reference in case somebody has a replacement spring whether the breaking section is the same thickness are not.

[mikepilk]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 measure the thickness the mainspring and also the thickness of the little section of the breaking spring. 

The spring is back in, but if it comes out again, I'll measure it.

[VWatchie]

10 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Roughening the barrel wall helped.

That's something that I have considered (and it was suggested by @nickelsilver when I was struggling with this but I never did) Sorry, for straying from the subject of your thread, but just one last question. What do you use to roughen the barrel wall (sandpaper?), and how hard do you go (grit)?

Edit: Do you go hard enough to get to the brass?

Edited May 4, 2021 by VWatchie

[mikepilk]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's something that I have considered (and it was suggested by @nickelsilver when I was struggling with this but I never did) Sorry, for straying from the subject of your thread, but just one last question. What do you use to roughen the barrel wall (sandpaper?), and how hard do you go (grit)?

Edit: Do you go hard enough to get to the brass?

The walls were worn smooth (down to the brass) due to the sliding spring and lack of lubrication. I think I used about 1000 grit wet and dry. It solved the slippage problem on one of my Omega watches, so not just Seiko.

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity it be nice if you in a micrometer otherwise were stuck with a veneer caliper but we do measure the thickness the mainspring and also the thickness of the little section of the breaking spring. Just because I'm curious about the thicknesses that you have versus what whatever we look up and just for future reference in case somebody has a replacement spring whether the breaking section is the same thickness are not.

Not sure that the following post answers your question, but anyway.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/15384-despite-kluber-p125-this-orientseiko-mainspring-slips-way-too-soon/#comment-138013

EDIT: The link doesn't jump to the correct post. Anyway, it is my 3rd post "Posted July 15, 2020" in that thread.

EDIT: Again, sorry for being OT!

Edited May 4, 2021 by VWatchie

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Not sure that the following post answers your question, but anyway.

strangely enough I remember that discussion. I was just curious what somebody else got from measurements with an older Seiko whether there is a difference in the thickness of the breaking spring how much difference etc. So if someday in the future someone asks basically the same question we can say yes the original spring is different.

[mikepilk]

That was an interesting read @VWatchie, I now know why you and @JohnR725 are interested in the bridle thickness.

I'll certainly measure it if I have to take it out, and make a point of trying to re-use Seiko springs if possible.

[mikepilk]

I've ordered a new pallet fork. This movement seems to have been run for years with the oil dried out. I had to replace the brass bushes in the auto movement with jewels as they were completely worn out. 

After cleaning I'm getting about 30 deg less amplitude DU than DD.

So, re-cleaned the balance/jewels, examined the pivots, re-oiled, but I still get the 30 deg less amplitude DU. Hairspring is nice and flat, nothing is touching where it shouldn't, pallet fork and guard pin engaging OK, barrel arbor bushes OK.

A close look at the pallet jewels shows wear on the entry pallet. This must be from 'normal wear' i.e. DU. I wonder if, when turned DD, the pivot moves a touch, and the escapement teeth hit a nice 'clean' bit of jewel, giving the better amplitude?     

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

This movement seems to have been run for years with the oil dried out.

this is a real unfortunate problem with some watches. In the early days of lubrication with organic oils they would harden up when they went bad the watch would stop grandpa I would put the watch in the drawer. Years later somebody might find it end up on this discussion group servicing it. I suppose technically that probably happen 30 or 40 years ago may be even longer. People finding the watches that stopped running but just needed cleaning unlike the watches today were cleaning isn't going to probably fix the problem.

But on automatic watches especially the early days a lot of metal on metal metal bearings. Once the lubrication was gone watch kept on running because it just evaporated dried up or just spread farther away from where supposed to be where it no longer did its job. It is rather common on automatic watches to basically run themselves right into the ground with happy owners on discussion group's not this one by the way. Being very happy that they didn't pay the greedy watchmaker to service their watch unaware of the eventually wear out. With the added bonus that the seals all go moisture gets in and rust that actually is a great grinding compound on even things like jewels.