Balance wheel wobble

[ifibrin]

Hi all! I just bought a new ETA 7001 movement to practice with, and noticed that the balance wheel was wobbling slightly. Is this amount of side-shake normal?

[Nucejoe]

You would need a balance truing caliper to bring this back.

 

[ifibrin]

Is this normal in a new movement? However, I did buy it via air-mail, and the packaging in it had non-existant shock protection: it was in a plastic movement case and some newspaper.

[Xilikon]

Not normal for a new movement and I guess something or someone pressed on the balance wheel rim while handling or shipping, thus the wobble.

[watchweasol]

I should remove th balance wheel and check th pivots are not damaged or broke , also that the rim is not loose on the staff. If all is well then its down to truing calipers and patience        all the best.

[ifibrin]

5 hours ago, Xilikon said:

Not normal for a new movement and I guess something or someone pressed on the balance wheel rim while handling or shipping, thus the wobble.

Just how hard would someone/something have had to press down on it to cause this?

[ifibrin]

I'm quite new at this so I think once I've stripped this down and put it back together, I'm just aiming to get it to run. Don't think its prudent to get the truing calipers just yet so this is just a practice movement to hone my motor skills for watchmaking. What do you all think?

[Xilikon]

40 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Just how hard would someone/something have had to press down on it to cause this?

Not much, it's really fragile.

38 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

I'm quite new at this so I think once I've stripped this down and put it back together, I'm just aiming to get it to run. Don't think its prudent to get the truing calipers just yet so this is just a practice movement to hone my motor skills for watchmaking. What do you all think?

Good idea to use it as practice movement. If you don't want to try to make it truer, you could always buy a new balance complete to replace it and keep the old one for when you have better skills later.

[ifibrin]

6 minutes ago, Xilikon said:

Not much, it's really fragile.

Good idea to use it as practice movement. If you don't want to try to make it truer, you could always buy a new balance complete to replace it and keep the old one for when you have better skills later.

Thanks for the reply! I noticed for the ETA 7001, the balance+spring is sold as the 721 (complete balance), with prices from about 35 Euros to about $152. Do you think they are the same? I paid about $270, so if its $152 its almost half the price of the new movement!

[saswatch88]

24 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Thanks for the reply! I noticed for the ETA 7001, the balance+spring is sold as the 721 (complete balance), with prices from about 35 Euros to about $152. Do you think they are the same? I paid about $270, so if its $152 its almost half the price of the new movement!

personally for $270 i would return it, this in my eyes would be unacceptable. if you are new at this ETA is not a great practice movement esp with a busted balance, unless you have the money to blow then go for it, but even if you get a new balance they are not just plug and play. there will be further adjustments needed.

Edited April 25, 2021 by saswatch88

[ifibrin]

23 minutes ago, saswatch88 said:

personally for $270 i would return it, this in my eyes would be unacceptable. if you are new at this ETA is not a great practice movement esp with a busted balance, unless you have the money to blow then go for it, but even if you get a new balance they are not just plug and play. there will be further adjustments needed.

 

Unfortunately, I live halfway around the world from where I bought it and the shipping experience has left me exhausted. I also can't be sure if it was me who damaged it so I shall just use it for practice.

[JohnR725]

36 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

721 (complete balance), with prices from about 35 Euros to about $152. Do you think they are the same? I paid about $270, so if its $152 its almost half the price of the new movement!

just in case you don't have the service bulletin or parts list I've attached that. You'll notice that your watch has a shock protection system that means the balance pivots probably are not broken and probably are not bent. Not impossible just shouldn't be. Sometimes of the watches hit hard you could knock the protection system out of place.

Daniel notice I've actually attached 2 PDFs?  that's because I keep forgetting if you download PDFs from cousins oftentimes they're not complete because they only have them for the parts. It helps to get them from someplace else where the more complete. on the other hand this works out for a good lesson. The old number of 721 is the number of a balance wheel it could be the balance wheel from any watch. The watch companies came to realize that they could have a whole roomful of 721 with none of them being the same so they came up with a new numbering system. Which may not be helpful because that may not be the number they use out in the real world but it is a number for one specific balance wheel.

first link takes you list of all the parts for your watch. The reason is doing this is often times some watches could have more than one balance wheel but it looks like this one should have only one. You can click on the part that the very top the list to get the second link. That's all the watches that have the same balance complete. then he also get this number  721/1988  which intake to their home page and see if it's available unfortunately it appears to be out of stock but we do get a price. it looks like before was out of stock it should cost right around $40.

2 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Unfortunately, I live halfway around the world from where I bought it and the shipping experience has left me exhausted. I

it would help before looking for parts reference sources for you if we had a clue where you're located.

But it does look like look at the video it's wobbling way to much. Ill still run like this but it would be nice it was actually flat and it will give you something to play with and learn from. As I said before check the jewels make sure they're in and correct and in general look at the watch and see if it actually is a new old stock watch. Sometimes new watches are always entirely new. Conceivably they may have even been in something and then came out again but that shouldn't have happened. A lot of times new old stock especially older watches may be because they never sold him the first place especially some movements but this one should be fine

 

 

 

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETA_7001

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=[^[DXM[M

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.26879/.f

 

 

30_ETA_7001.pdf CT_7001_FDE_289015_08.pdf

[ifibrin]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

just in case you don't have the service bulletin or parts list I've attached that. You'll notice that your watch has a shock protection system that means the balance pivots probably are not broken and probably are not bent. Not impossible just shouldn't be. Sometimes of the watches hit hard you could knock the protection system out of place.

Daniel notice I've actually attached 2 PDFs?  that's because I keep forgetting if you download PDFs from cousins oftentimes they're not complete because they only have them for the parts. It helps to get them from someplace else where the more complete. on the other hand this works out for a good lesson. The old number of 721 is the number of a balance wheel it could be the balance wheel from any watch. The watch companies came to realize that they could have a whole roomful of 721 with none of them being the same so they came up with a new numbering system. Which may not be helpful because that may not be the number they use out in the real world but it is a number for one specific balance wheel.

first link takes you list of all the parts for your watch. The reason is doing this is often times some watches could have more than one balance wheel but it looks like this one should have only one. You can click on the part that the very top the list to get the second link. That's all the watches that have the same balance complete. then he also get this number  721/1988  which intake to their home page and see if it's available unfortunately it appears to be out of stock but we do get a price. it looks like before was out of stock it should cost right around $40.

it would help before looking for parts reference sources for you if we had a clue where you're located.

But it does look like look at the video it's wobbling way to much. Ill still run like this but it would be nice it was actually flat and it will give you something to play with and learn from. As I said before check the jewels make sure they're in and correct and in general look at the watch and see if it actually is a new old stock watch. Sometimes new watches are always entirely new. Conceivably they may have even been in something and then came out again but that shouldn't have happened. A lot of times new old stock especially older watches may be because they never sold him the first place especially some movements but this one should be fine

 

 

 

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=ETA_7001

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=[^[DXM[M

http://www.julesborel.com/s.nl/it.A/id.26879/.f

 

 

30_ETA_7001.pdf 1.12 MB · 0 downloads CT_7001_FDE_289015_08.pdf 2.84 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks for the reply! That was very well thought out.

I am located in Singapore so most watch parts have to be ordered in, as far as I know. Hopefully the fix will be something simple like replacing the balance jewels and end stones in the Incabloc shock system. I did read in another forum those balance jewels in the shock system can sometimes be shifted during shipping, and the forum user suggested a tactical smack to the watch to resolve it, but that's in a cased watch so I really don't think its a good idea in an uncased movement.

[Nucejoe]

Collet is removable on original Peseux 7001, I guess ETA  have made this with removable collet too, so if you are willing to defer static poising , you can bring back this to shape without all required special tools, just to go ahead with practicing your basic service on this. 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

4 hours ago, ifibrin said:

Hopefully the fix will be something simple like replacing the balance jewels and end stones in the Incabloc shock system. I did read in another forum those balance jewels in the shock system can sometimes be shifted during shipping, and the forum user suggested a tactical smack to the watch to resolve it,

Judging by how happy the balance runs in your vid, I don't think any part is broken, or jewels have moved.

Its the balance wheel thats out of true. Mark on the wheel where studs is to be for in beat adjust.   remove the hairspring, reinstal the balance only on mainplate, turn the wheel to see where needs to be lowered or raised, ink mark it? take the balance out and hold it by hand and try leveling by tweezers, it may take several tries. OR practice removal/ instaltion of balance complete with this before attempting to replace it with new.

 

 

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, ifibrin said:

I'm quite new at this so I think once I've stripped this down and put it back together, I'm just aiming to get it to run.

I think that is an excellent idea! You can always get back to this "problem" at a later time when you feel motivated to learn something new. Before you start disassembling, check how it runs so that you compare it to when you have assembled it back. Best of luck, and we're here to help if you need some assistance!

Edited April 25, 2021 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

personally for $270 i would return it, this in my eyes would be unacceptable

Oh yes, I agree! If you just want to build up your experience and skills I'd recommend you get a used pocket watch movement such as the Unitas 6497 or 6498, or a clone. You'll find quite a few of those on eBay, like for example this one. I would also recommend the Vostok 2409 (or 2414 if you want date a complication) as they are extremely affordable. You'll find my service walkthrough of a Vostok 2409 here and an eBay example here (get a few for spares). Best of luck!

[VWatchie]

6 hours ago, ifibrin said:

and the forum user suggested a tactical smack to the watch to resolve it

Bad advice! You should never "tactical smack" anything working with watches. Can you provide a link to that "advice"?

[ifibrin]

After close inspection of the balance assembly with the technical document for the eta 7001, I realize it’s missing the stud screw!

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Judging by how happy the balance runs in your vid, I don't think any part is broken, or jewels have moved.

Its the balance wheel thats out of true. Mark on the wheel where studs is to be for in beat adjust.   remove the hairspring, reinstal the balance only on mainplate, turn the wheel to see where needs to be lowered or raised, ink mark it? take the balance out and hold it by hand and try leveling by tweezers, it may take several tries. OR practice removal/ instaltion of balance complete with this before attempting to replace it with new.

 

 

How does a balance wheel go out of true? Do you think the shipping via mail might have something to do with it?

[VWatchie]

21 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

I realize it’s missing the stud screw!

Very observant! You're a natural! Unfortunately, I don't think that would explain the out of true balance wheel, but you will have to replace the stud screw to be sure. However, it is another strong indication you should return it or ask the seller for a partial refund.

9 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

How does a balance wheel go out of true? Do you think the shipping via mail might have something to do with it?

It was rapped in paper, right? My guess is that this movement was in this condition when it was shipped.

Edited April 25, 2021 by VWatchie

[ifibrin]

Just now, VWatchie said:

Very observant! You're a natural! Unfortunately, I don't think that would explain the out of true balance wheel, but you will have to replace the stud to be sure. However, it is another strong indication you should return it or ask the seller for a partial refund.

It was rapped in paper, right? My guess is that this movement was in this condition when it was shipped.

It came in a coin sized plastic movement case, with the hour wheel of the motion work and 2 dial screws in a separate small ziplock bag. These 2 items were together in a slightly larger ziplock bag. Just that and some newspaper in a reinforced cardboard box. 

The reason I bought a new movement is I wanted to make sure the movement could work in the first place, and I guess it works... somewhat

[ifibrin]

8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Very observant! You're a natural! Unfortunately, I don't think that would explain the out of true balance wheel, but you will have to replace the stud to be sure. However, it is another strong indication you should return it or ask the seller for a partial refund.

It was rapped in paper, right? My guess is that this movement was in this condition when it was shipped.

As in more generally, how does a balance go out of true? Hard knocks to it? I don’t think parcels can go through the mail, especially ones that are the size of a small book can travel half way round the world without many impacts.

also, I dropped the contents while removing it from the parcel, so I can’t blame the supplier for sure. 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by ifibrin

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

How does a balance wheel go out of true? Do you think the shipping via mail might have something to do with it?

I don't believe dropping the box would usually do this, I can imagine a drop of the bare movement landing on the rim of its balance wheel doing this. 

I agree with VWatchie though, already "defective when shipped."

A wheel might warp when restaffed, so under good magnification,  you just might find evidence of balance having been rebuilt.

Regs 

Joe

 

[ifibrin]

I looked at the balance wheel through the endstones on both sides, and for each vibration, I can clearly see the balance pivots shake slightly from side to side at 15x magnification. The balance pivots looked fine otherwise. It does look that the balance wheel is just out of round, but the movement still works for my purposes.

I think I will try to get a partial refund, but keep the movement for use in practicing stripping down and reassembly for now. From the movement design sheet the eta 7001 looks quite similar in layout to the one used in level 2 of mark loving’s course, just smaller. I’ve learned quite a lot already comparing it against the videos in mark’s course. I’ll try and fix the wobble when I am at level 3 (fault finding) and have taken apart the movement and put it back together at least 5 times.

However, will only do that when my tweezers arrive! Been just looking at the movement and comparing to the one used in marks course.

Edited April 25, 2021 by ifibrin