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Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic


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I'm going to show  my ignorance again.  I was wondering how important it is to actually remove the main spring from the barrel and clean it separately?  Most videos I have seen show the main spring being removed and cleaned.  However I have seen others that do not do this (one person saying it was more trouble than worth).  I have been avoiding it as I do not have a winding tool to get it back into the barrel.  However, invariably when I get a watch back together I get poor amplitude and significant positional error.  Can an inadequately cleaned mainspring be the cause of some of this?

Thanks in advance.

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34 minutes ago, nlapietr said:

However, invariably when I get a watch back together I get poor amplitude and significant positional error.  Can an inadequately cleaned mainspring be the cause of some of this?

Not really. If you want to remove the doubt from your mind fit a new mainspring, isn't expensive and doesn't require a winder. 

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4 hours ago, nlapietr said:

However I have seen others that do not do this (one person saying it was more trouble than worth).

I really like this one. Just think of the time watchmakers would save if they didn't clean those mainsprings.

As a reminder this is watch repair it spans a sizable amount of time. Because of that much time we run into all kinds of interesting problems. If the mainspring is blued steel it is probably set with time. It was lubricated with any lubrication they typically have a habit of going bad at least the earlier organic ones. If you have a set mainspring if the lubrication disintegrates you will have a problem.

I once had an example of this a person etc. watch in had it serviced came back it didn't seem to run? He said it back it came back it still didn't run. I've seen the person's website and it advocated not to remove the mainspring the same reasons you said it's a lot of work it's big problem don't do it. The person obviously didn't have access to a timing machine either. When it was wound up it ran with 245° in a dial down position. It's always recommended multiposition on the timing machine. This was a pocket watch crown down it dropped to about 200° that's barely acceptable. 24 hours later you can see the effect of not taking the mainspring out Dial down it dropped to 243° which is very acceptable. But in crown down it was now running at 154° that is very unacceptable.

The original mainspring I don't remember about the lubrication but it was definitely blued steel and it was set. So I reclaim the watch put a new mainspring in. Now are getting 300° of amplitude in all positions when it was wound up. Dropping to 260° in its worse position 24 hours later.

You probably won't always have this nice of the success but you cannot tell well ask you can if you mainspring is bad if you don't have enough power to run the watch for 24 hours that's an issue if you're amplitude is very very bad it's an issue.

5 hours ago, nlapietr said:

However, invariably when I get a watch back together I get poor amplitude and significant positional error.  Can an inadequately cleaned mainspring be the cause of some of this?

Unfortunately This watch repair it's not always the simple. Can the mainspring issue cause all of this definitely. But a whole bunch of other things can cause the same problem. For instance assuming as newbies typically do that cleaning will fix all problems that Is a false assumption also. Positional errors relate to the balance wheel and hairspring. If you have super low amplitude then everything gets magnified considerably. The usual rule is that when the watches serviced it really should have better than 200° it should be much much closer to 300°. If you're amplitude socks you definitely have an issue and then everything else is going to look much worse. So you need to get the amplitude up then you can look at all the other problems which conceivably you could also have. A lot of this depends upon how old the watches in other words how many times has it been serviced before you possibly inappropriately.

5 hours ago, nlapietr said:

I have been avoiding it as I do not have a winding tool to get it back into the barrel.

A unfortunate problem and watch repair is lots of specialty tools are required. Some tools you almost never use but when you do there worth their weight in gold. Other tools like the mainspring winder conceivably might use every single time you service a watch. If it's a modern wristwatch you can purchase a new mainspring They are usually mounted in a ring if it's the right mainspring it just pushes and you don't need a Winder. At the very minimum you need to take the lid off and look at the mainspring you can't just assume hold that your four head and assume that it's functionally perfect. But if you take the lid off and it looks nice and clean no lubrication which will find on modern Springs because they don't need lubrication that shouldn't be the issue. But you do need that lubricate the arbor.

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3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

or apply breaking grease in case its a selfwinder watch?   

For the casual reader: that would be braking grease. One may need it or not, but surely does not want a product that breaks things ?

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4 minutes ago, jdm said:

For the casual reader: that would be braking grease. One may need it or not, but surely does not want a product that breaks things ?

I like to blame this on auto correct, facts are I mistake the two spelling.

Regs 

Joe

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17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I like to blame this on auto correct, facts are I mistake the two spelling.

I do make too many writing errors myself and apologize if my clarification seemed like pointless grammar police.

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5 hours ago, jdm said:

I do make too many writing errors myself and apologize if my clarification seemed like pointless grammar police.

All things considered we do quite well on this group? Members all around the planet were English may not be their primary language. Auto correcting software that doesn't know what technical horological terms are. People using dictation software that never makes spelling mistakes. The ability use a spelling checker for any of this is problematic. Then horological terms always one of my amusements. If you look at books anything in print the last 100 years depending upon where you're located the terminology has changed over time. Yes I think were doing quite well all things considered.

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I love reading through these, and because of them I am learning a great deal, but I have to commend you John your look like your name should be 约翰, only joking I fully understand that predictive text is a nightmare.

Please accept my apology if I’ve upset anyone, the site is great and the information is fantastic for us newbies.

My apology to you especially John, I know you must be very knowledgeable by you comments.

?

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  • 5 months later...

Hi all.

Sorry for a basic newbie question but I need some help and advice regarding lubrication of the mainspring an barrel, I have tried to search but keep seeing different methods, so just adding to my confusion.

So when lubricating a manual wind watch mainspring, I understand it's just a case of lubricating the spring with a thin coat of grease and the putting 3 small blobs of grease at the bottom of the barrel then install the spring, that I assume is an acceptable way of dealing with manual wind spring.

My confusion comes with Automatic wind springs, I assume the spring is once again given a thin coat of grease as above and understand the barrel wall needs a few blobs (technical term) 😉 of breaking grease.

Do you also grease the bottom of the barrel like with a manual wind spring or just the barrel wall.

I have watched loads of videos on YouTube and everyone seems to do it different.

Whats the correct way to lubricate a mainspring and barrel in an automatic watch.

Thanks for any help with this.

Paul

 

 

 

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New springs are already lubricated, so you don't need to do anything to them.

Cleaned springs, both auto and manual need a very thin coat of grease (Moebius 8200). I put a little on some tissue paper, and pull the spring through - but don't cover the end (bridle) of an auto spring.

You shouldn't need to put grease on the bottom of the barrel for either types of spring. 

But, some recommend putting a few drops of oil (D5 or equivalent) on to the coils/bottom of the barrel. Some do, some don't, your choice.

For auto springs, the inner wall of the barrel needs a thin coating of breaking grease ( eg Moebius 8213,8217 depending on how much breaking)

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  • jdm pinned this topic
  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, everyone!

I have an ETA 7750 (Automatic) which stops over night.

When I initiate things off by hand winding it, the main spring can clearly be heard to slip, but the watch works fine for the rest of the day.

This cycle repeats itself, daily.

I haven't looked, but let's assume that the spring and barrel are ok, intact, and it just needs a bit of attention, with nothing broken.

Now, the  ridiculous price of 'barrel grease' makes the purchase of 8712, P125, or whatever else, completely out of the question.

So, what I would like to ask, is this:-

If I buy a complete barrel, with spring and arbour from say, Cousins, would it be ok to just install the new barrel as is, or does it still need barrel grease?

Your input on this matter, will be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Len.

 

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  • 1 month later...
7 hours ago, JS335 said:

new mainsprings are typically pre-oiled.

Only if the word new is not a new blued steel mainspring. Far as I know they were never prelubricated it's only the more modern white colored ones supposedly. Depending upon the packaging sometimes they will actually tell you there prelubricated typically they may not. So either there prelubricated with some form of dry invisible lubrication Or whether it's some kind of steel that supposedly doesn't need lubrication.

Then as correctly pointed out if it's an automatic watch you do need a special grease for the outer barrel wall

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  • 4 weeks later...

I need a short term solution for assembling this automatic wind barrel.  I don't have any breaking grease.

I will order some but I don't want to leave this disassembled.

What I do have is Moebius 8203, and Molykote DX, and that stuff I use on my John Deere tractor 🤣

 

I just have not been working on automatics.  The last one I did had instructions to not open the barrel--that was easy.

 

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2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

 I don't have any breaking grease.

That would be braking grease. Surely you don't want to break anything 🙂

 

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I will order some but I don't want to leave this disassembled.

What about nothing at all, and test it well. An healthy bridle, as in not having been distorted by removal and reassembly, will do its job just fine even dry.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello all, this is not an answer but still a question. All these posts about lubricating springs & barrels are about automatic time peaces! So what should be done to a manual wind spring & barrel? Do they need lubricating whatsoever? If so, where? 

 Please can someone clear this matter up for me. Be greatly appreciated...

    David...

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