Hampden 18s New Railway movement, balance wheel problem

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, ayrond said:

I completely disassembled it and put it in the ultrasonic cleaner for 5 minutes with zenith 251 formula. 

What are further steps to get it more clean?

If you remove the endstones, you get a chance to inspect the jewels and clean and peg the jewels. I use a brush and some lighter fluid to clean the jewels and endstones. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Lower pivot looks worn, its too short and should be replaced with a new one.

In addition to all the other observations which look correct yes the pivot looks short and the end is not quite right plus it looks scored. For now it will probably function a little bit you will have to replace the staff at some point in time. The good news is unlike the other watch companies you don't have a a lot of choices it looks like they only have a new and old style for the 18 size watches. As usual for American staffs you want to measure the old to make sure you order the correct replacement and then measure that the make sure it actually does correspond to the size of the original staff.

1 hour ago, ayrond said:

completely disassembled it and put it in the ultrasonic cleaner for 5 minutes with zenith 251 formula.

Looking at the specifications of your cleaner it's a water-based concentrated. It also comes in two varieties with ammonia or with out. The ammonia variety would be better it makes the plates all nice and bright and shiny removes oxides but extreme caution. It's to be used at room temperature only time limit to no more than five minutes or less otherwise it goes beyond removing oxides and starts to dissolve the metal. That's why they also sell the other variety without ammonia and label it is safe for people worry about the effects of the ammonia. Personally I like the nice bright and shiny that it produces.

38 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

You didn't rinse off the cleaning solution? You have to rinse it. For that one they say to rinse with water, the dry with warm air. I would do 2 or 3 rinses in distilled water, then a dip in isopropyl alcohol, then air dry. Before the peanut galley chimes in- no a 30 second dip in alcohol will not harm the shellac.

Watch cleaning is interesting process typically written in stone is the belief that we clean followed by rinse the reality is it's all cleaning it's a multi-step process. The first step is a cleaning fluid that hopefully is supposed to put everything into solution. But in the case of old organic lubricants they don't always like to go into solution. Then the rinses basically continue to reduce the surface concentration of the previous step. So basically each step is reducing the contamination on the plates until hopefully it's all gone.

Water-based watch cleaning fluids make me nervous. The concern I have is they can do a really good job of cleaning and if they're exposed to water with oxygen in it they can rust steel parts. Use deionized or distilled or something water that doesn't have dissolved air like you probably have with tap water.

Then definitely the very last of the fluids should be some form of either alcohol or a compatible commercial non-water-based watch rinsing solution. Even the commercial companies making very expensive watch cleaning machines recommend isopropyl alcohol. We have it in the last rinse of our very expensive machine at work. That's because some of the commercial rinses don't like to evaporate at least where I live. So isopropyl alcohol will rinse those off and it will evaporate. Although at home I was using wood alcohol which does dissolves shellac but only for a few seconds Then I had no problems getting things to dry.

Then the jewel pictures look suspicious? One of them almost looks cracked or broken just can't tell in the pictures.

[thewatchsmith]

There are a lot of good suggestions for what the problems may be but in think you really need to step back for a moment and try improving a couple of things first before anything else.

First off in order to be able to diagnose any issue in a watch, the watch has to be chemically clean and all the parts in good working order.

So the first thing is to improve your parts cleaning. I would suggest pre cleaning parts during your disassembly. This will help you not only in your inspection process, which is going to be my second point, but helps to keep your expensive cleaners clean. You can use napatha and surgical foam swabs to clean area's where dried oils and gunk are built up as well as pegging the jewel holes. 

When you clean your parts in the ultrasonic you may need more than 5 minutes to get them clean. 5 minutes in a high quality machine is probably OK but I am assuming you are probably using a starter one since you are new. You also need to get the residue off either with a cleaner rinse or at the very least with water and then an additional rinse of reagent IPA. A good method for drying parts after your rinse is in a food dehydrator since it had a fan and heater. 

Just becareful of solvents and heat around your jewels.  

Next thing is your inspection process during disassembly. Most new guys just take everything apart and go straight to the cleaner. 

It would be wise to slow down, and start checking things before putting them in the parts tray. 

If don't have a timegrapher get one. Not only does it give you rate, amplitude and beat error, it tells you how good your servicing is. Remember everything starts with a chemically clean, properly lubricated movement with no faulty parts. If you have done a proper job the timegrapher will reflect that. If you have done a poor job, it will tell you that as well.

 Start with checking the functions of the balance wheel and escapement. Learn what deadpoint is and where the jewels should be in relation to the different positions of the pallet. Start getting a feel for end and side shake. In other words you need to inspect the divisions of all parts before you go to the cleaner.

Inspection is key in vintage watches, otherwise you will be constantly chasing your tail. I would recommend getting a microscope asap. It makes inspection way more effective.

The greatest virtue in watch repair is patience.

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

@thewatchsmith   I agree with you 110%.

 

[ayrond]

1 hour ago, thewatchsmith said:

There are a lot of good suggestions for what the problems may be but in think you really need to step back for a moment and try improving a couple of things first before anything else.

First off in order to be able to diagnose any issue in a watch, the watch has to be chemically clean and all the parts in good working order.

So the first thing is to improve your parts cleaning. I would suggest pre cleaning parts during your disassembly. This will help you not only in your inspection process, which is going to be my second point, but helps to keep your expensive cleaners clean. You can use napatha and surgical foam swabs to clean area's where dried oils and gunk are built up as well as pegging the jewel holes. 

When you clean your parts in the ultrasonic you may need more than 5 minutes to get them clean. 5 minutes in a high quality machine is probably OK but I am assuming you are probably using a starter one since you are new. You also need to get the residue off either with a cleaner rinse or at the very least with water and then an additional rinse of reagent IPA. A good method for drying parts after your rinse is in a food dehydrator since it had a fan and heater. 

Just becareful of solvents and heat around your jewels.  

Next thing is your inspection process during disassembly. Most new guys just take everything apart and go straight to the cleaner. 

It would be wise to slow down, and start checking things before putting them in the parts tray. 

If don't have a timegrapher get one. Not only does it give you rate, amplitude and beat error, it tells you how good your servicing is. Remember everything starts with a chemically clean, properly lubricated movement with no faulty parts. If you have done a proper job the timegrapher will reflect that. If you have done a poor job, it will tell you that as well.

 Start with checking the functions of the balance wheel and escapement. Learn what deadpoint is and where the jewels should be in relation to the different positions of the pallet. Start getting a feel for end and side shake. In other words you need to inspect the divisions of all parts before you go to the cleaner.

Inspection is key in vintage watches, otherwise you will be constantly chasing your tail. I would recommend getting a microscope asap. It makes inspection way more effective.

The greatest virtue in watch repair is patience.

 

 

 

Thank you. I will take your advice. 

I guess I thought that I was starting with an easy cleaning and mainspring problem, so that is why I jumped on this one first.

I worked for a while for a lock and vault company working on bank vaults, in these big vault doors is a jeweled movement mechanical time lock made by Bulova.

In order to be able to service these we had to attend a Bulova watch class which taught us how to disassemble, clean in the ultrasonic, reassemble and oil the jewels. Other than some basic troubleshooting, that's as far as we went, and it's been quite a few years since I attended that class.

I will definitely take it slow, I just bought three or four watches with issues, and as I have spare time I was going to try to get them working.

It looks like this watch is extremely dirty, will the surgical swabs the care of all of that or is it okay to use a brush to clean these before putting them in the ultrasonic?

Also, what's a safe way to clean the dial?

 

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, ayrond said:

I guess I thought that I was starting with an easy cleaning and mainspring problem, so that is why I jumped on this one first.

This tends to be a common problem people assuming that cleaning in a mainspring fixes all problems. Some pocket watches that came to a stop because the organic oils hardened up it can be a simple cleaning and mainspring. But typically pocket watches have been worked on by others lots of others and they require adjustments in addition to a decent cleaning.

 

3 hours ago, thewatchsmith said:

When you clean your parts in the ultrasonic you may need more than 5 minutes to get them clean. 5 minutes in a high quality machine is probably OK but I am assuming you are probably using a starter one since you are new.

You want to be careful with advice like this if the cleaning fluid has ammonia it starts to etch after five minutes. People on the group have seen this the fluid will turn a pretty green color and the plates look like crap. If there is no ammonia or it's just the rinse or something else with nothing bad then you can go forever or very long time but be extremely cautious with the a motivated watch cleaner or you'll be very unhappy and not have a clean watch at all. Okay it will be clean but it will not look nice.

3 hours ago, thewatchsmith said:

I would recommend getting a microscope asap. It makes inspection way more effective.

Be careful what the microscope often times people can see the dust on the pine needles in the forest but they can't see the trees which means I can't see the problems.

[thewatchsmith]

Well the surgical swabs are basically small triangular shaped sponges on a stick that I use for cleaning. I use clean ones dipped in reagent IPA to clean jewel holes and cap jewels. Then I'll reuse them to spot clean really dirty area's on parts or plates during disassembly before they go into the ultrasonic. I don't like the fibers left behind from pegwood or fiberglass brushes.

As far as cleaning dials there is no correct answer for everything. The current condition really dictates what you can or should not do. 

For porcelain dials I soak the dial in water and a polident tablet. If you are not familiar with it, it's for cleaning dentures. Then into the  dryer. Works great.

A lot of dials you can test a small area with the IPA and see how it reacts otherwise a gentle cleaning with purified water.

 

[ayrond]

Good morning all.

I just wanted to give an update, I got a new balance staff and I could see the difference where the old one was worn. When I put the balance staff into the watch by itself I could see that there was no side to side movement anymore it seemed to fit nicely. I broke out my staking set and took my first attempt at replacing a balance staff, which I'm happy to say I think I did a pretty good job.

However, when I was putting it back together I noticed that the roller table Jewel was not sticking out all the way, it appears to be loose in the roller table you can push it up or down, so I guess I need to shellac it. 

I have some shellac on the way, but I did have a question. I know about roller table warmers, but I have an electronics bench and I have a hot air iron used for surface mount electronics. I have some very fine tips for it. I can also adjust the air flow down very low, has anyone used this for shellacking?

Also, is it possible for the balance bridge to be bent, it looks okay but when I apply some additional pressure closer to the balance wheel it seems to move more freely.

As I said earlier I was hoping to start with an easy one, but I may have picked my most problematic project watch that I have.

I am happy to hear any input.

 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, ayrond said:

I have some shellac on the way, but I did have a question. I know about roller table warmers, but I have an electronics bench and I have a hot air iron used for surface mount electronics. I have some very fine tips for it. I can also adjust the air flow down very low, has anyone used this for shellacking?

The whole purpose of the warmer is to get the heat usually from a flame transferred to the edge of the roller table to melt the shellac. If you can aim some tiny hot air source to the back side of the roller table melt the shellac you should be fine. I would do some experiments to figure out how much heat you need. The beautiful thing with shellac is once it's warm you have a little time to play with things and make sure everything is perfect and straight.

5 hours ago, ayrond said:

Also, is it possible for the balance bridge to be bent, it looks okay but when I apply some additional pressure closer to the balance wheel it seems to move more freely.

The Swiss actually made a tool once for bending balance bridges. You can bend the balance bridge to a certain amount it's actually a way of life on vintage pocket watch this because it's probably been bent before.

Then when you're putting your new staff together before you put the hairspring on with just the balance wheel on the main plate and the bridge you do want to verify that just a gentle puff of air and it spins and when it's spinning you can rotated around in multiple positions and it doesn't stop. As opposed to being surprised much later on when it doesn't seem to work and not grasping where the problem could be.

Then we put the hairspring on you can verify that it oscillates back and forth nicely before you put the rest of the watch back together. There is a certain advantage to 18 size watches that you can play with the balance wheel with just the plate and the bridge. But that's about the extent of it because once it's all assembled it's a real pain could you can't see anything.