Jump to content

Hampden 18s New Railway movement, balance wheel problem


Recommended Posts

Hello all.

I am working on a old Hampden 18s New Railway watch. I completely disassembled it, claened it, and replaced the bad mainspring. Once I got it back together, it ran but the balance wheel rotation wasn't smooth. Then after a little while it got to where it wouldn't run at all. I assumed that I had a broken balance staff or broken jewel.

Looking at the staff, it has both of the pins intact at the ends, so I don't think that it's broken. I looked at the upper and lower jewels, and they seem to be intact.

The jewels on the pallet fork, and the roller table jewel look ok.

I'm not sure what I'm missing, I didn't want to replace the staff for no reason, are there other things that could be wrong with it if it's not broken?

This is my first repair, so I'm sure I'm missing something obvious.

Thank you in advance for any light you can shed on this.

Screenshot_20210414-101451_eBay.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, ayrond said:

 it ran but the balance wheel rotation wasn't smooth. 

I didn't get the picture, " roation wasn't smooth" !   

Can we have a video of it running, plus side view of the oscilator when running.

What kind of shake are you getting?   end shake and side shake.

How does it run "cock down" ? 

Hairspring can be rubbing.

I remove both end stones and check upper and lower jewels under good magnification. Symptoms indicate a chipped jewel or staff pivot cone rubbing on jewel.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If not broken the staff may be bent so that the wheel wobbles. Could also be that the wheel is out of flat and needs to be trued. How does the wheel move, exactly? Can you post a video?

It is currently disassembled, I'll put it back together and try to get a video. You could just see slight hesitations every now and then, and it was running slow. The problem is actually getting a little worse now, I can't get it to run for very long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ayrondthe outermost coil - this is the terminal curve which passes through the regulator pins. You don't need to reassemble the whole thing - just reassemble the balance on the mainplate and check that it oscillates normally. Then you can add the escape wheel and pallet fork and check the interaction between the wheel and the fork and between the fork and the balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay great that's where I had it, it looks like the balance wheel is dragging on the plate. 

It does have a tiny bit of side to side play, I have ordered a new balance staff so that I can compare and see if I see any differences then I guess we'll look at the jewel.

Does this watch have much value, would it be worth some more time and parts to get it working right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

just reassemble the balance on the mainplate and check that it oscillates normally.

18 size American watches are interesting generally frowned upon as a starting watch because of issues in that there different. Even just getting it back together it can be a challenge for a lot of people if they don't understand how to get the pallet fork in for instance.

But as quoted above there is a bonus. To check out the balance wheel you just need the balance the main plate or top plate and the balance bridge you don't need the rest of the watch. At least to make sure that the balance can spin nicely.

2 hours ago, ayrond said:

This is my first repair, so I'm sure I'm missing something obvious.

Starting with an 18 size pocket watch as your first repair is an issue. For instance a 16 size watch would've been better. That's because you could remove the balance wheel removed the pallet fork verify that the trains spins nicely. You can't do this on 18 size watch. But because yours is currently a part and you're going to playing with things you might as well put the train back in after you get through checking the balance wheel leave the pallet fork out make sure the trains spins nicely.

The problem is 18 size watches are just so much difference there hard the work on because as I said you can't take the pallet fork out what the watch assembled like he can a 16 size you can't verify the trains spins nice. Getting the pallet fork in without breaking the pivots or knocking the jewels out can be an issue so you want to look really carefully at the pallet fork.

Oh and you didn't say the condition of the watch before you started servicing it? In other words was the watch running before? It's a typical newbie assumption that watch is not running can be repaired by cleaning and that is not always the case. So you watch may not be running because of a problem from before that we still need to diagnose and fix before it will run.

Then there's things like the banking pins they're usually movable and on 100-year-old watch they had probably been moved. This is escapement things you need to look at.

2 hours ago, ayrond said:

Once I got it back together, it ran but the balance wheel rotation wasn't smooth. Then after a little while it got to where it wouldn't run at all.

A little more clarification? In other words is altogether and he gave the balance of push and initially kind is sort of may be ran and then just stopped is different then if it ran for five minutes and then stopped?

Lubrication? Did you lubricate the escapement which is really hard on 18 size watch because it's hard to see stuff? The problem is there could be a whole bunch of things like whatever was the original underlying reason that this watch was not running.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks to be a nice fully jeweled watch - I am in favour of getting it running if you can (although Jon is probably right about it being a challenging starter). You can always put it on the back burner until you get more experience. Sounds like you may need a few more advanced techniques like truing the balance wheel, replacing the staff, etc.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I am in favour of getting it running if you can (although Jon is probably right about it being a challenging starter).

Usually for newbies I recommend starting with a Chinese clone of the 6497 new in running condition. Preferably possessing a timing machine also to verify that it's running. Then practicing taken it apart and putting it back together to verify it still running. Before moving off to a broken watch that you don't care about. Because anyone's success when they start off is usually success breaking things.

But this is the choice for the first watch. The first skill you need to learn is diagnostic skills and trying not to break the pivots. So we can still practice those skills with this watch. It just makes things much more interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your valuable input, just to clarify, before I worked on it you could shake the watch and the balance wheel would rotate and the seconds hand would move. When you tried to wind it it never built up any tension. I purchased a mainspring, and the main spring was bad. I got it all apart changed out the main spring, cleaned it with the ultrasonic cleaner, reassembled and lubricated.

After all this, I wound it up and it ran, (at this time I did notice little hesitations in the movement of the balance wheel) for about a day. While I was cleaning up my bench area I noticed that I had left the dust ring off of the movement.

After it had ran for about a day, I removed it from the case and replaced the dust ring, which did not require disassembling any of the movement.

I noticed that it was running slow, and I timed a full revolution of the seconds hand and it was about a minute and 8 seconds.

I removed the balance wheel assembly just to make sure I had not put something back together incorrectly. Then it would not stay running any longer. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, ayrond said:

I removed the balance wheel assembly just to make sure I had not put something back together incorrectly. Then it would not stay running any longer. 

One of the things that would be helpful is to have a timing machine it helps us with diagnostics helps us see things that you can't see with your eyes. Either the Chinese 1000 or 1900 or worthwhile investments.

The quoted text above gives us a clue in other words you are running not running great but you were running now you're not running.

49 minutes ago, ayrond said:

Okay great that's where I had it, it looks like the balance wheel is dragging on the plate. 

It does have a tiny bit of side to side play, I have ordered a new balance staff so that I can compare and see if I see any differences then I guess we'll look at the jewel.

Does this watch have much value, would it be worth some more time and parts to get it working right?

Newbies assumption always a problem you need to slow down.

Look very carefully at the balance wheel and they hairspring. If the watch was running before and it's not running now even of was running a poorly before you may have changed something taking the balance wheel in and out.

Then just as a warning when you're ordering balance staffs for American pocket watches you need to follow several steps if you want to be successful. Unlike modern Swiss watches were you can  looking up order and it will fit probably isn't going to happen on American pocket watch. Typically the balance staffs have variations sometimes with the same part number. Typically there is pivots size variations. To be successful you do need to measure the before and after balance staff to make sure they're identical in size this way you'll avoid unpleasant surprises with stuff that doesn't fit because the new staff is wrong in some way. A lot of times modern replacements will deliberately be made over size to allow the watchmaker to reduce to the proper size. Or there could be just the variations like with the pivots

then does this watch have value not really. But it's extremely valuable because you need to learn and this is the watch you chose to learn what so this now makes it a very valuable watch for learning. It doesn't mean you want to sink a lot of parts and money into it but we could still learn with it.

If you take the balance out look at the pivots make sure you still have those. Look at the jewel assemblies you can use a light behind them and see if you can see through see if they look like this still intact and they haven't been broken. Then put the balance back on the plate and possibly get us some pictures?

One of the things you have to really look at is the hairspring is it flat? If they hairspring is not flat and it's touching the balance arms the balance will not move freely. Then we have the balance wheel on the plate also turn it upside down and see how it moves look at a variety of positions is it really rubbing on the main plate? Is they hairspring touching anything is they hairspring even where it's supposed to be?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it's filthy, the large pieces of dust alone could be causing it to barely/not run, there appears to be congealed old oil and verdigris on the hairspring collet and the guard pin of the fork, the hole jewels look dirty, the roller jewel is covered in some sort of oil or grease and should be totally clean, and like Joe said the lower pivot appears to be damaged (too short).

Edited by nickelsilver
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Well, it's filthy, the large pieces of dust alone could be causing it to barely/not run, there appears to be congealed old oil and verdigris on the hairspring collet and the guard pin of the fork, the hole jewels look dirty, the roller jewel is covered in some sort of oil or grease and should be totally clean, and like Joe said the lower pivot appears to be damaged (too short).

I completely disassembled it and put it in the ultrasonic cleaner for 5 minutes with zenith 251 formula. 

What are further steps to get it more clean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You didn't rinse off the cleaning solution? You have to rinse it. For that one they say to rinse with water, the dry with warm air. I would do 2 or 3 rinses in distilled water, then a dip in isopropyl alcohol, then air dry. Before the peanut galley chimes in- no a 30 second dip in alcohol will not harm the shellac.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, ayrond said:

Replace the balance staff?

That is right. pivot being this short, lets the cone rub on the jewel. 

A test useful to master is, gently lifting one side of balance wheel to see if pivot jumps out of jewel hole. then you know either the pivot is too short or you got excessive end shake on staff.

Another point is you really wouldn't know the condition of jewels unless you remove both upper and lower endstones and expect the jewels under good magnification, you also gain better access to clean end stones and jewels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • that band is old as stated, there is a kit that pops up from time to time on selling sites for the repair of these type bands, some of this type are adjustable on a few links, one adjustable type allows you to align the round opening in the expansion slit [like yours] with the rivet to separate, but if yours won't come out then the rivet head is too big and will have to be done with some rivet removal and replacement, I suppose if you could make/optain the correct rivets that one could alter the said band, the tops/caps do lift off after raising the tabs....  
    • This is a watch from a friend who sent it to a neighborhood watchmaker for a battery change. It came back with the watch stem in a ziplock bag and the dial skewed 20°. The watchmaker told him that the stem was faulty and the watch cannot be repaired. I opened up the watch and found that one dial foot was broken off and still stuck in the movement, while the other was bent until it was flat against the dial. The stem could be inserted but it couldn't be pulled out to quickset and time adjusting positions. I did a full disassemble, cleaned and oiled the movement. But when it put in the battery, the second hand runs super fast. Like it gains 30 mins every hour. Any advice on fixing this problem? TIA.
    • I determined that the balance staff is rotating, not the roller table, so my second attempt at riveting was unsuccessful. I have ordered a new balance staff and will take measurements when it arrives. The balance staff i originally ordered (and now reordered) was specified as: Replacement balance staff: (A. Schild Caliber 984 1002 1021 1124 Original Balance Staff Part 723) so it should be correct. Measurements: (see pic below for terminology) xxxyy is a place holder until the new balance staff arrives. Lower pivot: Old - .08 mm New - xxxyy Lower pivot to balance seat: Old - 1.53 mm New - xxxyy Roller shoulder: Old - .42 mm New - xxxyy Hub: Old - xxxyy New - xxxyy Balance shoulder: Old - .86 mm New - xxxyy Collet shoulder: Old - .56 mm New - xxxyy Upper pivot: Old - broken New - xxxyy
    • Hello and welcome from Leeds.  We're here to help. 
    • I was just about to adk that, probably they have unnecessary waiting lists to make their watches appear more exclusive than they actually are.
×
×
  • Create New...