Jewel Setting Burnishing Problem

[jdrichard]

Folks,

I am replacing a jewel within a gold setting on a S16 Ball Pocket Watch. I pushed the jewel out of the setting with my Seitz jeweling tool, and noticed that part of the very thin lip that folds over the jewel is detached. There may not be enough material to grab the new jewel.

Question: do I try to use the old lip material or do I use my lathe and try to cut in a new lip to burnish over the jewel.

As well, I am looking for a 30/160 olive shaped jewel to fit into the setting: the only jewel I didn’t have. I am also considering modifying a flat edged jewel to fit into the slightly beveled setting.

I did make a video on this project on YouTube.

 

Really appreciate som advice on this repair.

JD

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

modifying a flat edged jewel to fit into the slightly beveled setting.

If you're burnishing a jewel in you should always modify the edge. Otherwise trying to burnish over a square energy is problematic even though we see people do it. There's a reason why the jewels had the shape they did you should modify the jewels to fit the setting rather than to force the setting to a modern jewel. If you're going to use a unmodified modern jewel just friction at him like you're supposed to.

3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

I pushed the jewel out of the setting with my Seitz jeweling tool

If you going to do the burnishing you cannot push the jewel out you will usually or as you discovered break the setting. A better way is to smash the jewel and then open up the setting. Or use the tools specifically designed to do this. Because as you've noticed the setting was holding nice and tight pushing the jewel out has a tendency to break the setting.

3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Question: do I try to use the old lip material or do I use my lathe and try to cut in a new lip to burnish over the jewel.

If you have a modified jewel in other words the rounded edge you could always try because you don't have a lot of choices here so you might as well try the choices you have. But it looks problematic as to whether you have enough material. So you may be able to make a micro cut because you don't have a lot of room and have enough material to burnish. But only with a modified jewel because I doubt should have enough to go over a conventional jewel.

The other option a course is because it looks like the setting is almost smooth inside would be to fit a modern jewel and not worry about the burnishing aspect. Providing there still am enough material left to hold.

[oldhippy]

It doesn't look good. I would machine a new one. With a new one you know it is going to hold, to me that old one looks as if it wouldn't hold the jewel tight and it certainly won't be held evenly all around.  

[JGrainger]

The Daniels book can be handy for some of this sort of stuff - fabricating parts, it includes shaping jewels. Pretty sure there are a few videos on Youtube too.

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

It doesn't look good. I would machine a new one. With a new one you know it is going to hold, to me that old one looks as if it wouldn't hold the jewel tight and it certainly won't be held evenly all around.  

This is a gold setting so machining a new one required that I have the material. I could put a layer of locktight over the complete jewel and setting and then cut through to expose the jewel. Sort of creating a fake lip. Or, simply locktight in the jewel?? I know it’s not the best solution, however, I don’t have the gold to make the new setting.

[oldhippy]

No gold in your workshop whatever next. OK joke over.

For those that are following this work. This is where we have a repair which comes under restoration or repair. Restorating would meen it is repaired by a gold replacement because that is what the original is made of. Repair means it can be replaced by a brass replacement. It depends on the customer, if it's your own then the decision is yours. It is also a tiny repair/replacement. 

[nickelsilver]

If I was doing this, and making a new one wasn't an option, I would check the existing hole diameter with plug gages, then bore a step the correct diameter to friction fit a modern jewel into the setting. You can't use a reamer or through-bore it as the upper side of the setting will be destroyed and look terrible. Most of the time these setting have a deep cut around the hole for the jewel to provide material and access for burnishing over, this one looks like there's enough to bore to the next jewel size. The friction fitted jewel will hold like any other friction fitted jewel, and the repair will be essentially invisible from the top.

 

I would never use an adhesive on a jewel, or anywhere else in a watch (maybe a little light duty Loctite on stem to crown, but that't it).

[jdrichard]

17 hours ago, JGrainger said:

The Daniels book can be handy for some of this sort of stuff - fabricating parts, it includes shaping jewels. Pretty sure there are a few videos on Youtube too.

Which Danials book are you referring to. I could have it.

[jdrichard]

9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

No gold in your workshop whatever next. OK joke over.

For those that are following this work. This is where we have a repair which comes under restoration or repair. Restorating would meen it is repaired by a gold replacement because that is what the original is made of. Repair means it can be replaced by a brass replacement. It depends on the customer, if it's your own then the decision is yours. It is also a tiny repair/replacement. 

I think the customer wants the original. Last night I sourced a plate for a Ball PW that has this jewel and currently am negotiating it purchase. I will still try to replace the jewel in the original for practice. I may thin the jewel a bit, then cut a micro lip to burnish over the jewel. That may work well.

[jdrichard]

8 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

If I was doing this, and making a new one wasn't an option, I would check the existing hole diameter with plug gages, then bore a step the correct diameter to friction fit a modern jewel into the setting. You can't use a reamer or through-bore it as the upper side of the setting will be destroyed and look terrible. Most of the time these setting have a deep cut around the hole for the jewel to provide material and access for burnishing over, this one looks like there's enough to bore to the next jewel size. The friction fitted jewel will hold like any other friction fitted jewel, and the repair will be essentially invisible from the top.

 

I would never use an adhesive on a jewel, or anywhere else in a watch (maybe a little light duty Loctite on stem to crown, but that't it).

I think you are correct and that is excellent advice. I have sourced an original plate for a Ball PW and am negotiating the price. I will however fix this jewel in the manner you described and see how well it works. Running into a lot of jewel issues lately with old restorations/repairs. The glue idea was the engineer in me. Put a hat on the jewel and then make a hole that would leave the edges of the hat to hold the jewel.

[Repivot]

If you work on nicer railroad quality pocket watches it would be good to stock a bit of gold round stock for turning out new jewel settings like this. Most watch supply houses also offer jewelry products including round stock. Because it's gold they sell it in small quantities, like by the inch, so you won't have to break the bank to stock it. Gold machines similar to brass but is softer. I personally stock both yellow and rose gold. 

[oldhippy]

6 hours ago, Repivot said:

If you work on nicer railroad quality pocket watches it would be good to stock a bit of gold round stock for turning out new jewel settings like this. Most watch supply houses also offer jewelry products including round stock. Because it's gold they sell it in small quantities, like by the inch, so you won't have to break the bank to stock it. Gold machines similar to brass but is softer. I personally stock both yellow and rose gold. 

Agree.

[jdrichard]

11 hours ago, Repivot said:

If you work on nicer railroad quality pocket watches it would be good to stock a bit of gold round stock for turning out new jewel settings like this. Most watch supply houses also offer jewelry products including round stock. Because it's gold they sell it in small quantities, like by the inch, so you won't have to break the bank to stock it. Gold machines similar to brass but is softer. I personally stock both yellow and rose gold. 

Thanks and good suggestion.  I will have a look.  As well, I will practice making a brass setting first....been a while since I made one.  Do you recommend a supplier to go to?

[jdrichard]

12 hours ago, Repivot said:

If you work on nicer railroad quality pocket watches it would be good to stock a bit of gold round stock for turning out new jewel settings like this. Most watch supply houses also offer jewelry products including round stock. Because it's gold they sell it in small quantities, like by the inch, so you won't have to break the bank to stock it. Gold machines similar to brass but is softer. I personally stock both yellow and rose gold. 

Also, should i be getting 10K and what gauge?

[oldhippy]

A tiny selection of blank rod is what I had. If you measure the size of what you need and see if it comes in that size, as you will know slightly bigger.  

[jdrichard]

21 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

A tiny selection of blank rod is what I had. If you measure the size of what you need and see if it comes in that size, as you will know slightly bigger.  

I need to know what k to use 10K 14K. Also need to find a source for the gold rods.

[oldhippy]

9 carat is the best because it's the hardest and cheapest. The higher the carat the softer it becomes and costly. Do you know anyone that makes gold jewelry or repair. The company I worked for had their own repairs for jewelry so I got mine from them. 

I have found this place 

https://bettsmetalsales.com/bullion

[jdrichard]

59 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

9 carat is the best because it's the hardest and cheapest. The higher the carat the softer it becomes and costly. Do you know anyone that makes gold jewelry or repair. The company I worked for had their own repairs for jewelry so I got mine from them. 

I have found this place 

https://bettsmetalsales.com/bullion

Big thanks OH. Can you use round wire? As no one seems to sell rods.

[Repivot]

I use 14K. Have you ever seen a gold jewel setting tarnished? Lower Karat gold will tarnish. Higher Karat won't as much. Check Cas-ker or Rio Grande. As for gauge, I order based on mm diameter of the setting I need to make, + a little. The customer service rep at the supplier can take it from there. 

[jdrichard]

1 hour ago, Repivot said:

I use 14K. Have you ever seen a gold jewel setting tarnished? Lower Karat gold will tarnish. Higher Karat won't as much. Check Cas-ker or Rio Grande. As for gauge, I order based on mm diameter of the setting I need to make, + a little. The customer service rep at the supplier can take it from there. 

Thanks. This is what I was looking at but in 10K.

[oldhippy]

Yes you can use round wire. If you want to know what carat of gold the other ones are in the movement you can alway buy a testing kit. 

[jdrichard]

9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Yes you can use round wire. If you want to know what carat of gold the other ones are in the movement you can alway buy a testing kit. 

Here is what I am trying, using the aluminum gold, which hopefully is a perfect match. So I will make the setting and test it before try to friction fit the original. 

[oldhippy]

You are not using heat so that should be fine. 

[jdrichard]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You are not using heat so that should be fine. 

Thanks,appreciated

[JGrainger]

On 4/5/2021 at 4:37 PM, jdrichard said:

Which Danials book are you referring to. I could have it.

The Daniels Watchmaking book covers making replacement jewels, that can be adapted to modifying them to fit in a setting.