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mainspring cleaning


arron

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Good evening,

I hope everyone is well.  I am working on a waltham 1883.  the hairspring and balance have a fair amount of gunk (it's rust colored but not sure if it's actual rust or just dried oil and dirt)

even after  I cleaned them in lighter fluid in my ultrasonic cleaner for about 30 minutes.  you can see it on the spring in the second photo at about 11 oclock and on the roller table; and on the arm in the first photo.  if i'm careful i think i could get the gunk off the wheel arm with some peg wood without taking off the spring.  i'm leery about taking off the spring because i ruined the roller table on a prior test wheel when i tried pressing (forcing) the spring collet back on.  i'm most concerned about trying to clean the spring without damaging it.  i'm not seeing a way to get the gunk off the spring, though, without using some sort of abrasion such as a stiff brush.  Any thoughts on this issue.  Thank you.  Arron.

 

 

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Lighter fluid is no longer shellac friendly when in ultrasonic, I would take a closer look at the impulse jewel which is likely to need re-shellac ing.

I am not sure if brushing the balance is a good idea either, its a split wheel and you risk throughing it out of poise.  

I am thinking stronger cleaning solution/cocktail at higher temperature. 

Following your thread with interest.

Regs 

 

 

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2 hours ago, arron said:

the hairspring and balance have a fair amount of gunk (it's rust colored but not sure if it's actual rust or just dried oil and dirt)

They hairspring is a blued steel hairspring it's supposed to look blue color. If it's been exposed to water though it might have a Rusty color that would be desirable. As far as using a brush it had better be really really soft you do risk distorting the hairspring if you're not careful. The blue Springs are usually relatively stiff but they really aren't designed for mechanical cleaning.

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I am thinking stronger cleaning solution/cocktail at higher temperature. 

You want to be careful with temperature and cleaning products especially watch cleaning products. The commercial watch cleaning fluids are not recommended at elevated temperatures as there too aggressive. The commercial fluids do a really good job of cleaning just not elevated temperature or extended time.. I give you a commercial ammonia aided watch cleaning fluid about four minutes would be the recommended time ultrasonic would be nice.

Then you have to check the roller jewel to make sure it's not loose and it doesn't necessarily like aggressive cleaning. Depends on how well the shellac has held up with time. Soviets loose it's going to be an issue to put it back on as you will have to remove the hairspring.

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Those darned "loose Soviets" ?.  (I now know you use voice recognition software)

I tried an old pallet in naphtha in an ultrasonic for 6 mins with no noticeable loss in shellac, but after 30 mins you need to check. 

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6 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

(I now know you use voice recognition software)

Oh dear my secret's out. I probably should go and edit that into whatever the heck I was trying to say but I think I'll leave it see if anyone else notices it?

Yes the frustration of dictation software.

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I think your best bet is to remove the HS and clean the parts separately. Removing and refitting the collet usually doesn't require any force at all. Mark Lovick demonstrates it in an excellent way in the following video.

 

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17 minutes ago, Rafael said:

Lighter fluid is not a very good degreaser as it contains small amounts of oil. 

Correct, and it's formulated to burn not to clean, per quantity it cost a lot more, but you can write that as many times you wany then on the next topic there will be someone, beginner or seasoned, suggesting its use. 

 

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3 hours ago, jdm said:

Correct, and it's formulated to burn not to clean,

 

3 hours ago, Rafael said:

Lighter fluid is not a very good degreaser

It seems to be the number one product used for cleaning watches at least on this discussion group. That's because they don't know anything better and it's what they use.

It also depends upon where you're located? For instance in the USA you can order at least it's on the website watch cleaning fluids from Amazon the only catch is you have to buy a gallon of the cleaner in the gallon the rinse which will last you forever. Or other parts of the Orworld you order cleaning products from cousins.

Or if you rest the problem and we really want to have your lighter fluid you Google what lighter fluid is new find out that it's  Primary ingredient at least according to Wikipedia is Naphtha. Then if you just look at what your local hardware store has you might find something like this. But I would still try to go with a commercial watch cleaner if you could as it does more than degreasing it's actually designed to clean watches it's amazing what happens if you use a product that is meant to do whatever you're trying to do.image.thumb.png.a3527aa6f27e327045ddf97a056d6575.png

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3 hours ago, jdm said:

Correct, and it's formulated to burn not to clean, per quantity it cost a lot more, but you can write that as many times you wany then on the next topic there will be someone, beginner or seasoned, suggesting its use. 

 

Would you approve of for example Horosolv Degreaser and/or Renata Essence? Not cheap, but not expensive either.

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I use Naphtha I buy from ebay, from an industrial chemicals company sold as "Petroleum Hydrotreated Light SBP3. It's not too expensive bought by the litre, much cheaper than something like Horosolv

But I always finish with 99.9% Isopropanol to remove any residual oiliness.

Edited by mikepilk
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Consarn it, the jewel doth move ?.  i thought i had done my research before putting the balance/hairspring in lighter fluid/ultrasonic.  lesson learned.  so now on to the fix.

1) can i use some liquid shellac to reattach the jewel: i have some that i use for repairing fountain pens.  or do i need to buy the flakes and melt it in.

2) looking at my options for cleaning the hairspring, i am thinking of getting some One-dip.  can i put the hairspring inside that and put it in the US.  or do i even need the US with this chemical.  of course this time the balance won't be attached so i don't need to worry about the jewel.

Thanks to everyone who has provided advice.  Arron

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28 minutes ago, arron said:

can i use some liquid shellac to reattach the jewel

If the jewel is physically still in place yes you can use liquid shellac. It's actually quite nice to use the touch up jewels that are already in place if you think there might be an issue. The only problem might be getting the liquid shellac where it needs to go which is on the back side and not getting it on the hairspring.

 

29 minutes ago, arron said:

looking at my options for cleaning the hairspring, i am thinking of getting some One-dip.  can i put the hairspring inside that and put it in the US

Usually the one dip cleaner is just for dipping not ultrasonic. Then is usually just for removing oil film not for aggressive removing of whatever you perceive your removing?

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15 minutes ago, arron said:

Consarn it, the jewel doth move ?.  i thought i had done my research before putting the balance/hairspring in lighter fluid/ultrasonic.  lesson learned.  so now on to the fix.

1) can i use some liquid shellac to reattach the jewel: i have some that i use for repairing fountain pens.  or do i need to buy the flakes and melt it in.

2) looking at my options for cleaning the hairspring, i am thinking of getting some One-dip.  can i put the hairspring inside that and put it in the US.  or do i even need the US with this chemical.  of course this time the balance won't be attached so i don't need to worry about the jewel.

Thanks to everyone who has provided advice.  Arron

Nail polish would work and will not damage the base metal in long run. 

Shellac ing involves heating the roller table.

Have you seen Marks video on shellac ing? 

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18 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Would you approve of for example Horosolv Degreaser and/or Renata Essence? Not cheap, but not expensive either.

Both of these products say there for degreasing and for cleaning hairsprings. So both of them should work fine although I like the second one in the description better but they're probably more or less identical.

But if you're trying to actually clean a watch it seems like watch cleaning fluid would be the way to go as it's designed for cleaning versus just degreasing even though the greasers claimed there for cleaning also. It's just that watch cleaning fluids have additional things to help things go in the solution beyond degreasing

but both of these would still make good hairspring rinses

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I really appreciate everyone’s comments.  To synthesize and summarize some of the lessons learned (maybe it will help out another newbie):

1)      Minimize the amount of time a hairspring sits in lighter fluid inside an ultrasonic machine because the combination can remove shellac that is holding the impulse jewel in place.  30 minutes in my case was too long.

2)      When removing stubborn debris from a hairspring:

a.       Perhaps the best method is to use chemical wash and rinse solutions (such as L&R) in an ultrasonic bath.  Cost and volume being the major drawbacks.

          i.      Careful not to have temperature too high and leave in too long or damage can occur.  Someone recommended 4 minutes maximum time.

b.       Other chemicals such as One dip/B dip are meant to remove oils from the spring and not really to remove stubborn debris.  Naphtha/lighter fluid has small amounts of oil in it.  99.9% Isopropanol can also be used to remove oil.

c.        Be careful about using (or maybe don’t use at all) a brush on a hairspring to remove debris due to risk of damage.

3)      Liquid shellac (and perhaps nail polish) is a suitable alternative to shellac flakes.

4)      It’s a good idea to remove the hairspring and clean it separately from the balance to reduce the risk of removing shellac around the impulse jewel.

5)      Finally, and most importantly, beware of Loose Soviets.  ?

 

*PS does anyone know of a source for a commercial wash and rinse (like L&R) that comes in sizes smaller than one gallon?

**PSS I have other issues now to tackle on this restoration, but I’ll post in a new thread.

Thanks again.

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Lighter fluid (naphtha) doesn't dissolve shellac. It's isopropanol which dissolves shellac.

I would never remove the hairspring just for cleaning. No point, and risk of damage.

I mount the balance to the bare main plate, having removed the balance jewels (if shock protected).
I then run 2 x 3 mins cycles in the ultrasonic in a glass beaker of naphtha (sat in warm water). Blow dry, and then about 1 minute in a beaker of isopropanol in the ultrasonic.

All other parts I do either 3 or 6 mins in the naphtha, then 3 mins in isopropanol, APART from the pallet, which I only leave in the IPA for about 1 minute.

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