Where to start with clocks

[spectre6000]

I'm not totally lost with wristwatches at this point, but I know I don't know much about clocks. I want a clock for my desk (as a starter), and don't mind a minor project (actually a minor project is probably a good thing), but I don't want to buy a basket case or something crumby out of ignorance. I've noticed clocks typically have very few jewels, and there doesn't seem to be a "fully jeweled" normative quality aspect. Automotive clocks seem pretty cool. There are also a much wider range of escapements. They're just different animals.

Using examples found on eBay (or whatever, US eBay would be especially helpful in case something exciting gets good marks), what are some examples of good or bad clocks, and more critically say [i]why[/i] they're notably good or bad. I'd like to keep the price range under $100, but that may or may not actually be worth the trouble. Mechanical only. What are the look for/look out for basics?

[oldhippy]

If you want to start repairing clocks you should start at the very bottom and that would be a 30 hour alarm clock. This is the order that I started and at the time I didn't know a thing about them.

Time piece, strike, chime, French timepiece, strike. French carriage clock timepiece, French carriage clock strike, French carriage clock strike repeater, French carriage grand sonnerie. Fusse clocks all types. By this time you should have learned how to re-bush, mainspring work, fault finding, dealing with escapements. All pivot work. Cutting and replacing teeth. The expensive  Longcase clocks all types the last of this type is the 30 hour as these are more likely to have big problems such as wheel replacement escapement replacement just to start with. While all this is sinking in English bracket clocks be repaired, American clocks anniversary clocks (400 day) , bloody cuckoo clocks.

I was lucky I had a very good master, super workshop with an abundance of clocks of all types very well equipped. I also learned all types of watch work as well.

I must have left out loads of stuff but you get the picture. Start with a timepiece if you don't want to bother with the 30 hour alarm.       

[watchweasol]

Hi  Well I think OH has covered the ground very well. Start wit the bascics Alarm clocks and work forward as your skill set dictates. The 400 day clock is a simple device but complex in its execution, ie setting up/suspension etc and also requires a flat stable base, So leave that one till last. Good solid clocks like Junghans, Hermle, and the french clocks are well made and stand the test of time as long as they are well maintained. I have an Ansonia (American) Baloon clock decent movement and looks nice,  and there is the Gingerbread clocks by Waterbury/Ansonia. I have several of these dating from the 1800s and still running and never paid more than£40 for any of them, some required work cleaning and bushing, others just cleaning. Buying one without hands on is a lottery as can't see potential troubles. As you will appreciate we are unable to give anything other than general advice through experience others may have a different tale to tell.     cheers

  

[oldhippy]

The American clocks are OK but I wouldn't want anyone to start on there strikes  because of the wires that operate the striking, if you have a mishap and bend one due to cleaning or re assembling you could find yourself in deep trouble.  

[spectre6000]

9 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Time piece, strike, chime, French timepiece, strike. French carriage clock timepiece, French carriage clock strike, French carriage clock strike repeater, French carriage grand sonnerie. Fusse clocks all types.

[quote]Time piece[/quote]: I assume this is time only with no complications. Pretty much what I'm after, and from a practical perspective, 8-day would be handy. I assume this isn't really anything more than spring and gearing, and thus shouldn't be an issue.

[quote]strike, chime,[/quote]: I don't understand how these are different

[quote]French timepiece,[/quote]: I guess french clocks are finer? more complicated? What's the warning about here?

[quote]strike.[/quote]: same question as above.

[quote]French carriage clock timepiece,[/quote]: I think these tend to have platform escapements, which are aesthetically attractive and familiar coming from wristwatches.

[quote]French carriage clock strike,[/quote]: same.

[quote]French carriage clock strike repeater,[/quote]: I know what this means.

[quote]French carriage grand sonnerie.[/quote]: ditto

[quote]Fusse clocks all types.[/quote]: tritto (that's a word, right?)

Am I correct that the non-specific clocks (since French are specifically called out, and American in a subsequent post) are English? You guys have a much more... existent clockmaking tradition than we do over here. Looking back, my grandfather MIGHT have had a mechanical longcase clock (I don't know if that's what it would have been called though, it was maybe 24" long all together and hung on the wall), but it easily could have been quartz. That is literally the only mechanical clock I can think of having ever come into close contact with.

What's the deal with jewels (or lack thereof)? I can see how being stationary can remove some of the demands, but certainly not enough to dismiss them entirely as is often the case.

[rodabod]

It’s tricky as you’re based in the US, and what’s available there is very different to what we have in the UK and Europe. Unlike with watches, you can’t so easily go shifting kilos of clocks around the world. 
 

There was a recent thread about what to it in Canada which may be worth a look as the options are more similar there to what we have here in the UK. 
 

I think I’m regarded as a clock snob by some, but I consider them to be mainly junk. Probably 99%. And the same probably applies to watches. Ultimately it boils down to what you like. I can’t think of many clocks I like which are post-Victorian era. 
 

I’ve mentioned it before, but French clocks are an absolute bargain for the quality which you get. For a desk clock, you can get a drum type clock with either pendulum or balance wheel for around $60. I’ve attached a photo of a VAP model which I bought recently for £30. 

[rodabod]

5 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

What's the deal with jewels (or lack thereof)? I can see how being stationary can remove some of the demands, but certainly not enough to dismiss them entirely as is often the case.

That’s a really good question. Firstly, you need to consider the dates of production - jewels weren’t used often apart from for balance end stones in verge watches. So, they weren’t always ubiquitous. 
Jewels were expensive and difficult to manufacture in the earlier days. This would be tricky with much larger sized arbors. Early jewels were often made from garnet (apart from fancier natural ruby and diamond stones) and this was a very crumbly material. Not suitable for extreme forces. 
Jewelled bearings tend to be made to tighter tolerances than hand-finished holes or bushings, and this leads to another problem which is build accuracy - there is little leeway with jewelled bearings and the train has to be built very accurately to work correctly with them. The same applies today when people use roller bearings in place of bushings. They have to be perfectly accurately installed and the arbors perfectly upright. 

[spectre6000]

I saw the Canadian thread. I could stand to go back and look, but you're right. The UK is knee deep in awesome stuff, and here it's all crappy plastic quartz junk meant to last almost as long as the off brand batteries they're shipped with. I really don't understand what's going on though. I don't think people in the US didn't care what time it was. I'm sure clocks were in every house. I have no idea where they all went though!

A drum style clock with a balance wheel would make me happy as a clam. 8-day, and jeweled to a degree that makes sense. That one would check my aesthetic boxes just fine if it checks the functional/material boxes. I'm not super picky in that regard.

I've been eying automotive dashboard clocks. I'm a car enthusiast, so there's that tie in. And I'm a luthier sitting on thousands of dollars worth of all manner of exotic woods that would make for a great mounting case for such a thing... It feels like parts would be even harder to come by for those though... I could be wrong.

Re: jewels. That's all fine and good, but I'm really not looking at anything all that old. I think they figured out the synthetic jewels in the 20s or 30s, and I'm certainly not seeing much in that realm within my price range. That said, my price range may be the answer... Except it's not. It can't be! I can pick up fully jeweled wristwatches for $5 all day long, and I don't know that I've seen a fully jeweled clock of any vintage for less than at least several hundred dollars.

[oldhippy]

You will normally find jewels in platform escapements but not the cylinder platforms. Some longcase type regulators the very top of the range ones and Marine chronometer.

Our friend has requester about starting clock repairs. French clock movements are very good and some are reasonably priced but I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner. As our friend is in the U S A an American timepiece would be a good start, they are robust, not much to them and parts are plentiful. Something like this.    

[spectre6000]

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

You will normally find jewels in platform escapements but not the cylinder platforms. Some longcase type regulators the very top of the range ones and Marine chronometer.

Is there a reason inexpensive, run of the mill wristwatches are fully jeweled, but only the above get jewels though? The larger diameter pivots of a clock moving the same degrees rotation over the same period of time will see much more friction; why would they not be BETTER protected against wear? Especially since they see much less physical abuse, and should thereby be expected to be longer lived? It's always possible there's a fashion/tradition answer, but it just doesn't make sense really.

The clock you pictured clearly shows that it was made in India. I get that we made cheap clocks, but what about that clock movement in particular makes it more accessible to the novice clockmaker to your eye compared to something English or French? Also what's so challenging about French clocks? Why are they specifically to be avoided?

[oldhippy]

A lot to get through here. Early clocks such as Victorian and earlier would be down to cost. It's that simple. The clock was just an example of the sort of thing to start with. If you look it has an open mainspring so you don't need a mainspring winder. 

French clock movements are wonderful to work with. If you break a part it can be very hard to replace that part without some sort work needed. Because they are so good it is normally not just dirt that stops them, pivot wear, so you need a lathe. Re bushing which is not normally carried out by someone just starting you need certain tools for that work which I don't expect a beginner to have. You also need a mainspring winder again not a beginners tool. If you repair one of these french movements properly you have to polish every brass part, all the steel screws need to have there burr removed polished in a lathe and blued.

I'm not trying to put you off but I believe  in doing the job properly with no short cuts. 

If you decide to have a go I will help you.  

[spectre6000]

I see... The gist is that French clocks are especially high quality, and anything I could afford would need some real skilled attention and tooling.

Well... I certainly enjoy a challenge, and a mechanical challenge is even more exciting. The financial aspect of needing to invest in as many specialized tools as it sounds like I would need for a without the means of recuperating that cost like with wristwatches is decidedly off putting. I imagine I wouldn't be able to trust any French clock I find on eBay anywhere near my price range wouldn't need something I wouldn't be equipped for...

I fully intend to have a go at something, I just need to figure out what is worth having a go at that I might be able to succeed with... I've had years of wristwatch reading to get me where I am, but clocks are definitely a separate domain.

[HectorLooi]

I'm sure with your present level of skill, you could well manage something a little more challenging. 

There must be plenty of old English mantel clocks that have made their over to the US. If you check out old thrift stores and garage sales, I'm sure you'll find something to your fancy.

I jumped into the deep end after 3 years of tinkering with watches. At a Christmas party just before Covid-19 struck, the host asked if I could take a look at his longcase clock. It was a German Westminster chime clock which had been "repaired" but wouldn't work properly. And since then, I have restored 9 clocks which I got from ebay. 

So bite the bullet and go for it. There ought to be plenty of good clocks for under $50.

[oldhippy]

That was very brave of you. 

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

That was very brave of you. 

Haha. In retrospect, that was pretty reckless. But I know I have you to bail me out. 

[Michael1962]

Me again.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but if you were to have a look through some of these, (probably talking to @oldhippy here) are any worth what is being asked for them? If you click on the horizontal line of clocks for sale, there are some other on there as well.

I really do not have any idea of real values nor better brands to look for. The pickings over here are not great in number.

I must say that I am quite attracted to this. Yes, it's a quartz, but I'm really not bothered about that. I am not sure how much of the mechanism is 'working' versus 'non-working'?

[oldhippy]

This is all I would recommend from that bunch to start off. I'm not interested in clocks or watches with batteries.  

 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/60s-70s-Vintage-METAMEC-ENGLAND-desk-clock-Wood-NOT-WORKING-forRestoration/254812397295?hash=item3b54009eef:g:e2YAAOSw4A1f3hUh

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Westclox-Retro-Wind-Up-Alarm-Clock/163673692047?hash=item261bb6578f:g:ErAAAOSwnv9cGgXV

 

[Michael1962]

Thanks for your reply. I quite liked the black/green marble clock as well, but it looks like the balance staff has a broken pivot and I don't have the gear to make a new one.

[spectre6000]

Both of those look pretty sweet. Love the hands! Neither show anything of the movements, but I'm familiar with Westclox wristwatches, and they tend to be pretty... crap. Is there anything you're seeing that makes those two stand out without being able to see what's inside? Both listings have pictures of the business ends of the cases. Is there some knob or screw or something you're seeing that's telling you what's inside is probably worth bothering with?

[oldhippy]

I know what the movements are like it's the type of clock/movement to start with. Spares are around on the net, and I expect members on here to also have spares. The mainsprings might be broken but replacements are available. Am I correct when you go on ebay you go on to the American site.  

[Michael1962]

I make sure that I stay on eBay Australia. If I can see that the clock I click on is in America or somewhere which is not Australia, backwards and have a look at another one.

 

[oldhippy]

OK.

[spectre6000]

There seemed to be some bidirectionality to that response... The first part was an answer to my question about movement quality specific to those clocks, and how OH knew whether or not they were decent enough quality to be worth the risk/effort. The second may have been aimed at Michael1962. On the off chance I was intended as a/the recipient, my eBay prowlings are typically focused on the US, but if shipping is reasonable, I'm fine having something shipped in from wherever.