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Thanks all for the info..... Balance in ...... Pallets out ....... smile.png

Yes...I once bought used pallets for a seiko and the pallet stones were mis aligned. I contacted the chap I bought them from and he politely stated the pallets were taken from a working watch and all he had done was clean them prior to sending to me. A day later I got a refund and a polite email saying he had placed scrap pallets into his ultrasonic cleaner to test it, and discovered that it eroded all of the shellac away.

 

I have never found that naphtha fluid, white spirit, methylated spirits, isopropyl alcohol or biotex harms shellac. Has anyone found fluids which should not be used? I’ve not tested petrol (close to benzene).

 

Regards

 

 

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I found this post to be useful. Especially the part about refining petroleum.
I really don't like using lighter fluid because the purity of it is a pot shot. I was using Publix Quick Light and it leaves a lot of residue. The problem here is that they aren't meant for cleaning things. They COULD be pure naphtha but they could also not be. It's depends on the brand and not everyone has access to the same thing. Also, I get dizzy when I stand over parts soaked in lighter fluid. I use acetone to rinse it off but it's still a PITA.
I try to find all my solvents at Walmart or Home Depot because I am cheap. But it's confusing as hell to figure out what these products actually are. They are named by convention and not chemistry, so names like "paint thinner" could mean different things to the manufacturer.
For example, Klean Strip sells "Paint Thinner" and "Odorless Mineral Spirits." According to them, odorless mineral spirits is a purer version of paint thinner. But since you can use odorless mineral spirits as a paint thinner, it's confusing as to what "Paint Thinner" is...
Also, there are different types of solvents. Acetone is different from petroleum distillates. Since it's basically nontoxic and dries extremely fast, it's probably a good rinse solution.
I am probably going to use a petroleum based solvent and then rinse with acetone. For me, I will probably stick with "Klean Strip" line of products since they are cheap, widely available, and looks like high quality. For petroleum based solvents, there is "VM&P Naphtha", "Odorless Mineral Spirits", "Paint Thinner", "Xylene" and "Toluene." I am already having a hard time remember these names...
The differences between them is the boiling point. They have different properties and cleaning "powers". Not sure which is the best for cleaning watch parts since they all can clean grease.

I have had a lot of success with alternatives to acetone, naphtha, white spirit and such like. Two very good household cleaners I have had good results with are biotex and also ‘shout’. The latter being a readymixed waterbased solution in a pump bottle. I use this on very badly contaminated dials. Spray on and after 10 seconds very gently stroke the surface with a fluffed up cotton bud. Rinse after 1 minute and repeat if necessary. The only time this failed was with a Russian watch dial which I accidentally left soaking for about an hour. Unfortunately the decals came off, but the dial was like new!

Here are some before and after photos of a success story. The pointers were not attempted as the lume is too old and thin.
f06d6535106486de7b9f26673d1c4156.jpg212ce2bea330ab318951ce622584027f.jpg


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I was surprised when you said that naphtha, isopropyl alcohol, mineral spirits, etc. didn’t affect the shellac on the pallets.  These are petroleum based products and solvents, aren’t they?.

Hello mlflyd1.

Yes, they are.. but so is Vaseline, and that is sold for use on baby rash for example. Not all petroleum cracked products behave in the same way. I have not ever had problems with the shellac dissolving from a scrap pallet fork I tested in white spirit etc..

So are you saying that naphtha, white spirit or methylated spirits should not be used to clean the pallet forks?


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No. In a way I’m glad!
Isopropyl alcohol is plentiful, safe, and inexpensive.

Can I use acetone be used to rinse and dry pallets and balance complete?

I also hear Simply Green is a good and safe product to use for all the parts including the pallets.


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I wouldn't recommend using alcohol. I do a bit of furniture refinishing and I dissolve shellac flakes in alcohol to make furniture grade shellac finish. I would think that it would just as easily dissolve the shellac holding the pallet stones.

Apologies if this sounds like I am contradicting your advice TexanDon, but I’m a little confused because a well seasoned Horologist told me that as I’m only cleaning a few watches a week, it was fine to use naphtha (lighter fluid) and then a final rinse in ipa as it does not leave streaks or surface strains. This was for all components. My tests of an old scrap pallet showed no harm to the shellac around the pallet stones.

So tomorrow I’m going to do the test again, just to see either way. The pallet fork I use is from a Russian 2403A which must have been overheated at some time because the pallet stones droop from the pallet fork!

Kind regards


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I use 99% alcohol for making shellac from flakes. It is also called denatured alcohol because of the distillation process used. Drug store alcohol won't be anywhere near that level of purity. It is mixed with water which would make a shellac finish have water spots. Perhaps the lower strength is the key to success for use as a watch cleaning component. I should not have assumed that you meant pure IPA. 

Edited by TexasDon
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Isopropyl alcohol takes longer to dissolve shellac than ethyl, which is the main component of denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol can vary quite a bit in composition depending on the manufacturer, some have a very high ethyl content around 95%, others may have an almost even mix of methyl and ethyl. It can also contain a number of different solvents to "denature" it (which is just adding stuff to make the otherwise potable ethyl alcohol undrinkable).

While isoproplyl will indeed dissolve shellac a few minutes in it will rarely do any harm. I have a watch cleaning machine designed to use a water based cleaner and alcohol rinse (built in distiller, it's awesome). The only time I have issues with shellac dissolving is when I get distracted and leave the parts in the rinse for 30 minutes or more. It's always good to check the condition of the shellac on a fork as well as roller jewel anyways, especially on older stuff. Ammonia can also dissolve shellac if high enough concentration- it's commonly used to clean brushes used in shellac finishing as it's generally cheaper than alcohol. As most old watches have likely seen a number of servicings, and some watchmakers like to use quite long cycles on their machines, it does pay to check. It only takes a moment to heat the fork up and either reflow the shellac or remove it and apply fresh.

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As promised in my post below, I did carry out a test on an old ruined pallet fork to assess the effect of isopropyl alcohol. The fluid is manufactured by 3M and called ‘Surface cleaner for VHB tape’. The data sheet says the product is 90% propan-2ol And 10% water. (Propan-2-ol is ipa).

First I checked the texture of the shellac with a broken oiler converted into sharp pin. Very hard and glass-like, brittle at extremities

Test 1.
Submersed for 10 seconds, and absorbed excess fluid on tissue paper.

At 20X magnification the shellac appeared no different. Shellac was still glass hard

Test 2.
As above, dip time extended to 20 seconds, results as test 1

Test 3.
Dip time of 1 minute. Results as test 1

Test 4
Dip time 5 minutes with agitation. Results as test 1

Test 5
At this point I had to return to work so I left the component in for well over an hour. Upon my return, I examined the component and this time the shellac had expanded and was sponge like when probed with a pin. The stones could be moved in their sockets. After allowing the shellac to dry for 10 minutes, it’s texture was still soft and spongy. Clearly the ipa had taken an effect

So unfortunately I am unable to conclude the exact time elapsed before the ipa caused the shellac to soften, however even though I have not knowingly had an issue associated with pallet stones in the past, I have now made a decision that I will not place the pallet fork or balance in ipa in future, just in case.
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I also researched the use of ipa for watch cleaning on other sites, and the nawcc is very clear about it not being used at all on components which are shellac bonded:

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/best-final-rinse-to-avoid-residue-acetone-vs-99-isopropyl-vs-denatured-alcohol.121554/

Hope this is of interest.

Regards.


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I use denatured alcohol to clean the "shellacky" residue that forms on the inside of watch cleaners' jars and SS containers. It breaks down that stuff easily and visibly cleanly.

I don't think that I'd use it on pallet-forks or balances with roller tables/jewels installed. But regarding your basic dilution of isopropyl found in drugstores around the world, is it safe to use as quick rinse on complete balance assemblies? I ask because I just serviced a little 7.75L GP wrist-watch and it's running quite fast. I had noticed that the hairspring was sticking together a bit after soaking in Coleman fuel, what I believe is naptha. It seemed like there was  still a residue left behind.

So, would I be safe, and effectively remove the residue, by swirling the balance around in isopropyl for a bit after soaking in naptha? If there's any question, I'll just have go get some more One-Dip. I don't like the toxicity of it, or that it seems to disappear in a couple of years even if you have the cap on tightly. Any learned help is appreciated.

The problem with these small movements is that each time you manipulate things, you get close to disaster. And it's a game of numbers. Cheers.

 

Edited by MrRoundel
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  • 1 month later...

OK i want to get a GOOD cleaning solution, iam tired of using naptha. Was looking at LR but i think i may want to go with zenith. I want the movement to really shine so the zenith 777 is what i may go with but iam assuming it has fumes, all my equipment is indoors so was thinking to go with zenith 67 instead, but how well is the shine compared to the 777 does anyone know? also since both of these cleaners are solvent based iam sure i will also have to get the rinsing solution as well.

Also when i clean parts in my ultrasonic i put them in glass jars will any of these solutions have problem being in a closed off glass jar while cleaning, i figured this may also help with any fumes while cleaning.

and one last question: i hate cleaning balances in the ultrasonic i had a few hairsprings get screwed up cleaning them in an ultrasonic, sometime if i pull the balance out by the cock the wheel gets stuck in the solution. so i was gunna go with one dip but i read that it leaves a sticky residue and that doesnt sound acceptable esp for a cleaner designed specifically for hairsprings.

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Personally I use l&r But I did find you some helpful links. What is sometimes amusing is to look at the material safety sheets when they list the chemicals because you find a lot of times the difference in the fluids isn't really that much. Except Zenith isn't telling us what's in their secret formula. So the usual chemical to make things bright and shiny is some form of ammonia.

Looks like both Zenith cleaning fluids you mentioned should make things bright and shiny. Then with your cleaning fluid you also need a rinse of similar chemical makeup as the cleaning fluid. Then all of the solvent-based cleaners will have fumes. Not so much when you're running the cleaner but more so when you're drying. Personally I just never really notice the films at least with the watch cleaning solutions. The water solution for clocks that l&r makes the ammonia smell is I basically have to go outside you probably should have some sort of respirator when using that.

Glass jars work great for cleaning but if I'm interpreting your text correctly putting a tight fitting lid on would be bad. Anytime you have a solvent that gets warm it's going to evaporate With the possible to break the jar. Then even the ultrasonic action it's conceivable It's going to generate fumes.

Then I think a little more clarification of your hairspring issue is needed? I don't think I've ever had a hairspring screwed up with an ultrasonic cleaner.

 

https://www.zenithsolutions.net/productlist.htm

https://blog.esslinger.com/zenith-watch-cleaners/

http://www.lrultrasonics.com/industries/jewelry/jwl.solutionsnb.html

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I always used L & R cleaner and rinse. My cleaning machine was next to my extractor fan, so caused no problems. I think all cleaners and rinse give off some sort of smell.

The members on here that are repairing and cleaning movements today will be able to help you more then me. With me I'm talking what it was like back in the 70's & 80's.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi,

 

Question about watch cleaning and rinsing solutions, just got an old L&R watch part cleaning machine on eBay, nothing fancy(see photo), the photo is from the seller, didn’t have it on hand yet, I think I’m not using it a lot, because I'm only working on my own watches, but I would like to have the best results possible, like to work on some new Seiko movements, a old Russian Slava movement and more watches to come, need some recommendations for what products to use and where to get them with reasonable price.

 

If you have any tips, feel free to share too, there really not a lot of material out there on this topic, I mean what products to use, what different between products, what part do not put through the machine, I know plastic parts do not put through the machine so far.

 

Thanks a lot for your time.

 

Darak

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Edited by Darak
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Hi,

 

Few things worth mentioning is I live in WA, USA, I did watch Mark's video "How to clean watch parts and what solutions to use. Watch repair tutorials.", that's the most detailed video I had seen so far, but this video is made back in 2013 and some products are hard to get. 

 

Darak

 

 

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1 hour ago, Darak said:

If you have any tips, feel free to share too, there really not a lot of material out there on this topic, I mean what products to use, what different between products, what part do not put through the machine, I know plastic parts do not put through the machine so far.

Have a look to the pinned topic on the subject:

BTW, I don't think that an old, non-ultrasonic machine will make much of a difference for an hobbist. Personal opinion from experience.

Edited by jdm
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13 minutes ago, jdm said:

Have a look to the pinned topic on the subject:

BTW, I don't think that an old, non-ultrasonic machine will make much of a difference for an hobbist. Personal opinion from experience.

Hi Jdm,

 

Yes, I'm also following that post, thanks.

 

Darak

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