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2 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Yes, it comes in different % concentration (the rest being water), a bit like vodka, gin, whisky etc

That's not what I was getting at the stuff that work is in industrial candidates probably the highest percentage of alcohol you can get. But it's still used in ultrasonic cleaning machine as the final rinse with as far as I can tell zero bad for the shellac? Plus I know of another cleaning machine that actually used distilled alcohol for each use and that was the only rinse in the machine and as far as I know it didn't bother the shellac. But then there's references that it might bother the shellac?

 

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19 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I always used Ronsonol lighter fluid, It wont harm shellac. Best if you have a pot with a screw lid as it evaporates very quick. You can leave the complete balance in it for days and it will not come to any harm. 

I’m with OH, although I do have essence of Renata as well.

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48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 But then there's references that it might bother the shellac?

It happened to  me as well to the others and it has been written so many times, you never noticed? Alcohol is the normal solvent for shellac. Otherwise, it is not shellac.

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Quote

Shellac is a resin secreted by the female lac bug on trees in the forests of India and Thailand. It is processed and sold as dry flakes (pictured) and dissolved in alcohol to make liquid shellac, which is used as a brush-on colorant, food glaze and wood finish.

Source Wikipedia

I have used shellac dissolved in alcohol as a wood finish for years.

There is no doubt in my mind that shellac dissolves in alcohol, both in methylated spirits and isopropanol.

However it takes time, so the effect is not instant. I suspect that the shellac holding in a fork jewel will probably last several minutes in a bath of alcohol, however I would personally not recommend it as the results could not be predicted.

Your mileage may vary. Try it at your own risk.

If shellac has been replaced with some more modern alternative at some stage historically, then perhaps modern watches are less prone to issues, but anything produced before around the 1940s will almost certainly have shellac holding in the jewels.

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IPA used in manufactering is 95 % ( 5 % disapears when the cap is removed).     the stuff you get at the phamacy is about 75% the rest is WATER.    if it not sterile, it may leave a stain.   it was also used to steralize breathing masks in aircraft.  what a great day it will be when someone invents a glue, for the vintage watcher that WITHSTAND  I.P.A..   vin

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6 hours ago, AndyHull said:

I use the stuff from the local pound shop (dollar store). Since it is cheap, it contains nothing but combustible hydrocarbons. No other additives. It works well, and evaporates from a clean glass surface without a trace. Clean the glass first with acetone to remove any finger marks, then place a drop of fluid on it. Warm it gently and watch as it evaporates. If it leaves a rainbow of colour on the glass, then it contains *something* that is going to remain on your parts after you clean them. If it vanishes completely then you have found what you need.

Same here. Has always worked fine for me. And I also did the glass residue test.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’m surprised that you found corrosion when using that Elma soap. Was this on the steel parts or the brass parts? I wonder if it could have been an electrolytic reaction with your baskets. I’ve seen that happen with Horolene and aluminium containers. 

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Hi,

before I start my first project I want to make sure that my cleaning solution will work. I live in Austria and L&R products are not available right now. So I thought I go with Elma. I will use ultrasonic bath...

Elma Red 1.9 for the first bath (is this a degreaser?)

Elma Suprol Pro waterless Rinsing

and pure water as the last step

You guys think this will work?!

My second question is: All the parts that are assembled with shellac. How to clean them? If I understood correctly the degreaser will dissolve the shella

Again I will be thankful for all your answers. Greetings, Michael

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Watch cleaning solutions made for cleaning watches shouldnt dissolve shellac. As for the water it may not react well with your solutions. Also other than the most pure of water it will leave deposits and streak. Why not use another jar of the rinsing solution for your second rinse?

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I would avoid mixing waterless and water based solutions. It’s asking for trouble. You can just rinse with water if you are using a water-based cleaner. 
 

I think the Elma is probably the same as the soap I use from Greiner which is also red. It is a degreaser, but contains amines which will brighten metals. 

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1 hour ago, MichaelM said:

pure water as the last step

As already mentioned commercial watch cleaning products do not dissolve shellac. Then why are you using water for the last rinse?

One of the problems with water and clean steel parts is the likelihood of rust.

Then because of being puzzled by what you are doing and not familiar with the cleaner I looked it up it's the first link below. Then I see your problem you're using a water base cleaner. Then you got things a little bit backwards. So You're using water-based cleaner you would follow with a water-based rinse or basically water. But it's extremely important that the very last rinse not be water. I've experienced this cleaning a clock once and I did not enjoy removing all of the surface rust on all the steel components.

The second link is for the rinse which has this line of interest "Elma Suprol Pro is also suitable for rinsing and water replacement before the drying in the course of an aqueous cleaning and rinsing process for metallic precision parts." So what they're telling you is that as the final rinse this will remove the water so it can safely dry without rusting or other complications of having water on the parts.

Then personally I would prefer a cleaning solution with out water.

A better choice would be the third link Elma WF pro For the cleaner. Then a minimum of two jars of the rinse that you already have.

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/watch-cleaning-solution-1-litre-elma-clean-19-hf6093

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/watch-rinsing-fluid-25-litre-elma-suprol-pro-special-hf6092

https://www.hswalsh.com/product/watch-cleaning-fluid-25-litre-elma-wf-pro-hf6091

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  • 4 weeks later...

3L-40kHz-Digital-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-With

I bought one of the Chinese digital models all over eBay, Amazon, and AliX. For $64, and seeming a bit more industrial (I have other uses for it beyond watches), I thought it would be a solid win if it lasts a while. I used it for the first time this week. It takes FOREVER to heat up to the default 50°C, and I feel like it's MUCH louder than ultrasonics I've used in the past, but it got the job done. I got the 3L model, but be warned: that seems to refer to the volume of the entire machine, not the tank. The tank doesn't even hold a single liter. It does hold 3x small diameter mason jars with cleaning fluid in them though! A clean and two rinses, allowing me to cycle watch subsystems through right on top of one another.

The bad: 

I was hoping to be able to fit a V8 carburetor in there, but that's a solid no go... Even if I rotated it around in stages, I doubt I could get the whole thing. Even a 2 barrel carburetor would need to be done in stages.... Actually... Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the stock carb off a 1200cc VW would make it in one pass... The "3L" spec is beyond misleading...  

I haven't timed it or anything, but with about 1/3rd of the tank full at room temp and the lid on, it took about an hour to get to 50°C (the default heater temp). That's a long time. To be fair, the specific heat of water is pretty high, but it's definitely not that high. And once it reaches the set temp, it just turns itself back off and cools down at the rate water cools down with no heat source or insulation, so you have to keep turning it back on again every so often to hold the temperature.

The noise. Holy crap the noise. The ultrasonics I've dealt with in the past weren't something you'd want to play over loud speakers, but this guy seems to be piping its tune over loudspeakers! There's the high pitched noise you'd expect, but also a bit of a rattle and hum, and it's LOUD. I initially set it up on the kitchen counter for a test run with just water, dish soap, and a dirty bracelet. My wife immediately went with the baby back to the baby's room and closed the door. I ultimately tapped out and had to go back to our bedroom while it finished its cycle. It's intolerable. When I ran it for real, I took it down to the basement into a stone lined room that's mostly under ground, and closed the doors. If I were attempting to use this machine in a professional capacity, I'd probably pass if it had to live anywhere near where I worked. Even in a hobby setting, you'd better have the real estate to operate it somewhere far away. I might try to see if I can open it up and get some insulation stuffed in there... That may or may not be a bad idea, but the noise is absolutely intolerable.

The good:

It's cheap. I paid $64; I don't recall if that included shipping or not, but feel like it did. Granted, that's twice as much as the plastic cheapies on Amazon and such, but it's also much bigger and heated with some degree of control over its operation. 

It works. It got the job done. At the end of the day, that's the jam, and it acquitted itself nicely.

Lastly, the tank is just big enough for 3X 2oz mason jars in the basket with the lid on. That allows me to perform all three cleaning stages simultaneously and save time.

The verdict:

My feelings are very mixed on this. Watchmaking is a pretty zen hobby, and this machine wrecks any zen. In the automotive setting, no biggy. That's already loud, outdoors-ish, and it's not much of a detractor. As a hobbyist, I can afford the heating time, so that's no big deal. I have the real estate to get it away from me, so I can live with that limitation too. If I were using the machine on even a semi-regular basis, I'd definitely spend a little more on something better. For $64 though... I'd certainly entertain other options if I had the opportunity to lay hands on them and test them out, but I guess it works and it's here so it's what I'll work with until it breaks or I get more serious.

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/13/2015 at 3:12 AM, matabog said:
Hello!

 

I wash the parts in neophaline (benzine) but after that the parts sometimes have a thin layer of grease on them. For that I use isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol).

 

 

But be very careful - the alcohol dissolves the shellac so don't use it on the pallets and the balance wheel.

 

 

 

 

 

Bogdan

 

How do you finish off the parts you don't clean with isopropyl at the end? Do you just let them dry after their first rinse?

Edit: oh wow, just realized I commented on a 5 year old post. Not sure if I can delete.

Edited by pubudeux
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16 hours ago, pubudeux said:

How do you finish off the parts you don't clean with isopropyl at the end? Do you just let them dry after their first rinse?

Don't let part dry in air, blow with the air pump and store under the dust cover.

16 hours ago, pubudeux said:

Edit: oh wow, just realized I commented on a 5 year old post. Not sure if I can delete.

Post was started 5 years ago, and it has been continuously updated since.

Members cannot delete their own postings but can edit within 1 hour and and use flag button top right if they need further help.

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18 minutes ago, jdm said:

Don't let part dry in air, blow with the air pump and store under the dust cover.

Post was started 5 years ago, and it has been continuously updated since.

Members cannot delete their own postings but can edit within 1 hour and and use flag button top right if they need further help.

Thanks for that. Yes, once I had a look through the subsequent pages I learned a whole lot more.

I was looking for a "definitive" answer on the isopropyl alcohol but I can't find one, always seems to be a debate between - no Isopropyl because of damage it can do to shellac and that in small time windows the damage is none to minimal, so it is OK to "finish" off the part by displacing liquid with isopropyl alcohol.

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26 minutes ago, pubudeux said:

Because of damage it can do to shellac and that.

Shellac is only on the pallet fork, other than that  IPA is good for any metal and most plastics. And if you don't have that even household alcohol can be useful.  Really cleaning watch parts is not that difficult,  no need to make it complicated.

Edited by jdm
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14 hours ago, pubudeux said:

Thanks for that. Yes, once I had a look through the subsequent pages I learned a whole lot more.

I was looking for a "definitive" answer on the isopropyl alcohol but I can't find one, always seems to be a debate between - no Isopropyl because of damage it can do to shellac and that in small time windows the damage is none to minimal, so it is OK to "finish" off the part by displacing liquid with isopropyl alcohol.

So IMHO it is not Shellac you have to worry about. In my experience, there were no problems with the shellac (1-2 minutes in IPA in ultrasonic and immeadiatly air blown after). BUT you need to be careful with other glues used, like in the japanses movements - the stud is not glued with shellac, but something else, that I found it softens a bit... For those, I would just rinse by hand in IPA and blow-dry immediatly.

LAtely I am using a hairdryer to blow hot air - I find it more reasuring...

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39 minutes ago, matabog said:

you need to be careful with other glues used, like in the japanses movements - the stud is not glued with shellac, but something else, that I found it softens a bit... For those, I would just rinse by hand in IPA and blow-dry immediatly.

No just Japanese, that is the Etachron system adopted by Seiko also. The adhesive is applied with a controlled temperature. Now, cleaning a balance is a bit different than other parts, there dedicated solution but I believe that they are nothing else than hexane.

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:06 PM, jdm said:

No just Japanese, that is the Etachron system adopted by Seiko also. The adhesive is applied with a controlled temperature. Now, cleaning a balance is a bit different than other parts, there dedicated solution but I believe that they are nothing else than hexane.

I think One Dip is 99% tetraclorethilene

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4 hours ago, jdm said:

Which is, or will be, banned in all countries due to it high toxicity.

yes, i know that is nusty stuff!

I use 1:9, demineralized water and a short dehidration in IPA. Then blow dry. 

Clean as a whistle

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all,
Quick question which I know is a bit of a personal preference but I would like your thoughts;

Nationsl Watch Cleaning machine, which fluid to use? ... Quadralene, L&R or Elma?

Also, as I'm working in a spare bedroom, I would prefer non amoniated. 

Thanks in advance

Jon

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I've had very good consistent results using the Quadralene fine instrument cleaner which is a non ammonia  based cleaner, although it does have a very slight ammonia type smell to it but certainly not enough to be a nuisance in a small room , I also use the Quadralene fine rinse, both these are solvent based but are safe to use with shellac, I do though pre clean some parts if heavily soiled in dried gummy oil with lighter fluid, the cleaner is used neat and not watered down it is cheaper than other brand name cleaners.

Some people use isopropanol rinse, which will degrade shellac I personally would not use it, if you do be sure to clean the pallets and balance separately, it does have the advantage of being cheap and evaporating very quickly and leaves no drying marks, the Quadralene rinse is slower to dry but also leaves no surface marks.

The Quadralene web site is a bit poor and does not as far as I have seen list individual products, but the sales team offer good advice if you tell them what you need a product for, so ring them up and ask if you need to buy.

I am lucky in that I have two sets of jars for my National so do use a product similar to Horolene for some clock parts and distilled water for rinsing, it is always handy to have a spare set of jars for these machines.

I can't comment on other cleaners because I've never used them.

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