Jump to content

Recommended Posts

44 minutes ago, Koen said:

I don't mean lighter fluid, in my country we call it "wasbenzine" let's say "cleaning fuel"... ;-)

Yes, refined benzine is petroleum ether, naptha, shellite, etc, but native English speakers will confuse it with benzene, and tell you that is toxic (true), so better avoid that term on an international forum. 

Edited by jdm
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Koen said:

Think I just going to order this machine and the right products:

As a beginner hobbyists you don't need an €2,000 automatic cleaning machine. The same and less money can be spent of important tools like timegrapher, bench case opener, water pressure tester, lubricants and even a lathe. You can get an economic jewelry ultrasound cleaner but event that isn't mandatory. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey jdm,

Thanks for your good advice.

Need to make some cost for my firm this year, so thats why I was thinking to buy it... And maybe later I make from my hobby a bit of an income, so good material is always a +. ;)

Also looking for this timegrapher:

https://www.beco-technic.com/geraete-maschinen/uhrenpruefgeraete-kontrollgeraete/geraete-zur-pruefung-von-uhren/witschi-watch-expert-pruefgeraet-fuer-mechanische-uhren.html

Maybe to much for a starter... but hey YOLO.

 

What watertester do you recommend? With water or vacuum?

https://www.beco-technic.com/geraete-maschinen/uhrenpruefgeraete-kontrollgeraete/geraete-zur-pruefung-der-wasserdichtheit.html

 

The ultrasonic cleaner I already have here... Use it for the jewelry of my wife. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Koen said:

Need to make some cost for my firm this year, so thats why I was thinking to buy it... And maybe later I make from my hobby a bit of an income, so good material is always a +. ;)

If you have the funds buy a watchmaker lathe, accessories and learn how to use it. You may be become a good watchmaker as opposed to an equipped cleaner. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Koen said:

Hello,

Wan't to start on my first pocket watch movement for a try out...

Planning on buying a Elma cleaning machine later this year, but for now I will do it manually.

Do I understand it right, that you put the parts in jars with 100% lighter fluid ( except pallets ) close the jar and put the jar in to the water in the ultrasonic? ( And then run as far as you can? :D )

Elma cleaning machine!!!?  NOT .   

I get me a staking set, set up a diy timegrapher ,lots of useful goodies you can get with that kind of money.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Koen said:

But still need to spend my budget for the end of the year... if not, government is taking it and spend it for me... :chainsaw:

That is so easy in watchmaking, especially when buying Swiss tools that on many cases  work the same but cost four times the Chinese. But that's another story. 

An other quick way to spend money is to buy  watches for practice. At the very first you can go cheap but ideally you want them to be of quality to be repairable, have parts available, and being of attractive brand and models to buyers to reseller later. 

However money can buy tools but not knowledge, dexterity and skllls, for that reason beginners must focus on practicing on the bench as more they can. Also reading books is very beneficial although nodawaday enrolling into an online course like the one offered by our Host Mark Lovick is probably a better alternative. 

Edited by jdm
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi,

I am new to watch servicing and repair, in fact I am currently undertaking my first service on my Omega 861.

I have opted to use a Elma S10H combined with the beakers and mesh pots.  

I decided to use Elma Luxury Clean - Red 1:9 in the first stage of cleaning at 60C for 10 minutes, for subsequent stages I use laboratory grade distilled water and then IPA.

I am confused as to how I would need to adapt the cleaning sequence for the Pallet Fork, could I use Elma Luxury Clean - Red 1:9 followed by a distilled water rinse only?

Very kind regards,

Graeme

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That should work fine. If you do 2-3 rinses in distilled water a very quick rinse in isopropyl alcohol will have no effect on the shellac on the fork (like 30-60 seconds). The isopropyl will soak up the water and then dry quickly, with a warm air flow either from the cleaning machine, a separate dryer, or just a hair dryer. The warm air is a must to avoid condensation from the cooling effect of the evaporating alcohol.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also have an old Elma, which I got at an Ebay Auction. I use the machine to clean the movements. 

I bought the fluids from elma. 1st Jar for a cleaning solution and the 2 others for the rinse.

The parts come out if the machine really clean and shinning.  Its beautiful!

I'll try to post a pic tomorrow. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

This is my first time using a cleaning machine with L&R extra fine cleaning solution and #3 rinse. I put the parts through each jar and dryer for 15 minutes. When I took the parts out I was disappointed to see that a couple of the parts have varying degrees of discoloration, almost as if they'd been blued. Whats more odd is that the affected parts include both steel and brass parts, while other parts whether brass or steel were left completely intact. I thought just maybe I left it cooking in the dryer for too long but my gut feeling was telling me otherwise, so I scrape off what discoloration I could and put them through the process again. Based on said gut feeling I interrupted the process right after the 1st jar and what do you know, discoloration. What went wrong? Is the extra fine any good? Is there something wrong? Should I be worried? Can I just assemble as is?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, wls1971 said:

How fast are you running motor, it looks like oxidisation, are you spinning the parts too fast and aerating the cleaning solution ?

I'm spinning it as slow as my Zenith Safeway would allow. Not near enough as far as I'm aware to make any bubbles.

14 minutes ago, clockboy said:

I have used L&R for many years with no issues. It looks like the parts have been cooked. 

What I half suspected at first as well, but as I said in the first post I tried again after scrapping off the oxide layer, but checked right after the 1st jar with the L&R extra fine and it was the same observation. 

Another thing, I just checked the rotor under the microscope because that looked especially ugly, and have determined that the plating is coming off... What gives? Is the extra fine supposed to be this intense? Before anyone asks, no I have not run it through any ultrasonic, specifically because I heard it might affect plating.

20191020_031534.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be nice to have a little better description of the cleaning machine? Watch cleaning solutions are interesting with their chemical properties. They do a nice job of cleaning and can make things bright and shiny depending upon the chemical makeup. But if you go too long chemicals that remove the tarnish can have bad consequences. That might be the plating you're seeing come off for instance. So for the cleaning solution Five minutes would be a good starting point.. The rinse tends to be relatively harmless you can go longer.

Ultrasonic it usually isn't an issue modern watch cleaning machines use it all the time.

Then you're cleaning fluid was it purchased new?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Component                       CAS Number  Percentage
Stoddard Solvent (C6H6 < 0.1%)  8052-41-3   60-65
Solvent Naphtha Light Aliphatic 64742-89-8  15-20
Oleic Acid                      1l2-80-1    15-20
Ammonium Hydroxide              1336-21-6   1-5
2 -Propoxyethanol               2807-30-9   1-5

The most aggressive to plating should be Ammonia, of which there is very little, maybe it was activated if an heater was used.
Anyway it seems too much a smart mixture for my taste, I prefer to apply one agent at (short) time, based on my own judgment of what is needed for each situation and part appearance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I assume this is the video that Mark did that you referring to?

https://youtu.be/qtQhRKPgjY4

The problem with the video is  the cleaning fluid while he refers to it as having ammonia the fluid doesn't seem to exist anymore and neither does the safety sheet?  It would be nice to know how much of each chemical is in there?

So for instance if you look at description of the#111 Ultrasonic Watch Cleaning Solution Ammoniated You will see the reference to ultrasonic. Then if you look at the description for the L&R extra fine It suggested mechanical watch cleaning. If you look at the safety data sheets exact same chemicals the only difference I see is a slightly different amount of Solvent Naphtha Is used. Otherwise  you get the same thing as shown above a variety of chemicals  but it's covered under trade secret.

Would mechanical cleaning be more aggressive than ultrasonic cleaning and would that make the chemical makeup more aggressive?

So cleaning solutions work really well but from personal experience if you go beyond a certain point in time they quit cleaning nicely and they start doing bad things like edging brass for instance. The solution will turn a nice pretty blue color the brass plates will have a nice frosty finish. So personally  I stay within five minutes in the cleaning solution..

http://www.lrultrasonics.com/industries/jewelry/jwl.solutionsnb.html

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could it be that an electric current has flowed through the liquid? How long has the rotor been in the liquid? Different metals can also generate electricity and galvanic corrosion.

Edited by Kraai
explanation
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Kraai said:

Could it be that an electric current has flowed through the liquid? How long has the rotor been in the liquid? Different metals can also generate electricity and galvanic corrosion.

That is a possibility, especially when you consider there are at least four metals involved in that rotor.


The bearing steel probably contains, as well as iron and carbon, a certain amount of chrome.


The rotor weight may well be lead, (or occasionally something more interesting like tungsten, gold or platinum).


The mild steel of the rotor plate is a mix of herbs and spices, perhaps including nickel, silicon, phosphorus, carbon, sulphur and recycled washing machines. 


The "plating" may contain copper, or some mix of precious metals, or may in fact be some form of laminated, or painted coating, similar to a sardine tin.


Therefore the potential for some interesting chemical reactions is always going to be there.


Add in to that mix, say local tap water with a high calcium or iron and or a  bunch of chlorine ion content, and pretty much anything can happen.


This is why, when they find something that works for them, most people will stick with the cleaning products they know, and keep the cleaning times as short as possible.

This also applies to polishing. Only do the bear minimum of polishing to get an acceptable result,  and test your method on an inconspicuous area if unsure, otherwise you risk breaking through finishes, or ending up with an item that is so heavily polished, that it starts to look melted.


Unfortunately fixing the problem once it occurs is much more tricky. There is no easy way to selectively re-plate an item like that, but if you were to attempt to do so, you would need to mask off the lead, the bearing etc with something that will protect them from the plating solution, and also avoid them killing the plating solution, by imparting unwanted metal ions that will ruin the results.

There are kits that allow "pencil" application of gold and other plating solutions if you do decide to attempt to remedy the issue, but they are a little pricey and they do require a little skill to master.

Edited by AndyHull
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...