Discouraged!

[EdB]

Hey all, 

Just wanted to vent a moment due to never ending issues. I am new to Horoloy but I have a knack to grasp new skills fairly easily with the exception of Horology. I recently worked on a eBay purchase (scrapper) for practice. AS 1187/94 which was running very poorly when purchased. I stripped the movement down, cleaned, reassembled and lubed. Placed on timegrapher and notice the beat was at 4.2ms. Before the cleaning the beat error was 1.0ms. I was surprised to see this. So I figured I would give it a go to remove the balance complete and make an adjustment to the roller. First off I didn't have a balance tack so I grabbed some material and turned one out on the lathe. That completed I removed the balance and placed it on the tack and made a slight adjustment and replaced. Checked on timegrapher and of course I moved the roller in the wrong direction (I was trying not to disassemble the movement to check the position of the roller prior to making the adjustment). Note: I did notice that the slot on the roller had damage as it appeared it had been adjusted in the past. Any way off with the balance to make another correction in the opposite direction. When I attempted to replace the balance It didn't seem to be fitting correctly so I removed to inspect. I guess I must have pulled on the spring while adjusting because it was stretched out of shape. Any advise would be appreciated (beside find a different hobby : )  ). 

 

Here a pic of the balance tack. 

[HectorLooi]

Nice balance tack. Don't be disheartened. You'll get better with practice.

A photo of your balance and hairspring would be useful.

[Nucejoe]

If coned shaped now, sorting out that hairspring will be painstaking. 

Dr ranfft lists five variants to AS1187, hairsprings interchange between them, so a scrap balance complete be a donor.   

 

[jdm]

8 hours ago, EdB said:

.Any advise would be appreciated (beside find a different hobby : )  ). 

Here a pic of the balance tack. 

My advice is to not use a balance tack. They have no practical advantage but can easily distort hairsprings, as you have found yourself. Post pictures of the hairspring here from top and side to see how much work is to correct it. 

[watchweasol]

Hi When removing a balance and cock lay it down on its back and place the balance in the jewel and cover it up placed in a safe corner untill required, JD Richard (Member),  made a tool which holds the balance safely and allows you to do adjustments ( I suggest you look it up in the search ). If as Joe suggests its gone cone shaped then getting it flat will be an issue, so as joe said a complete balance is the painless way to go. But the old balance will give you endless hours of pleasure in the art of manipulation. There are Videos of Marks that cover the manipulation and plenty of books to read. Lastly do not be discouraged, Horology is 100% skill 100% patience, and the dogged determination to succeed, We have all been through the loop so take heart that all the advise you get will be from people who like you have been there and got out the other end, sanity intact. I would encourage you to watch the videos By Mark Lovick (Administrator ) on the subject of balance springs.

TZIllustratedGlossary.pdf

[EdB]

Watchweasol,

That is the procedure I perform always. I will be sure to look up JD Richard and see what he worked up. I was having a couple of thoughts on how to make a tool to reduce the risk of damage to the balance complete. The only video I found was the one by Mark which I followed ( until I had to perform the task a second time). I have taken Marks course through level two. I am trying to get some hands on before moving onto the third level. 

JDM

I agree completely! I didn't find any other videos showing how to perform this task in a different manner, outside of removing the balance and hairspring from the cock and perform the task that way. 

Nucejoe, 

I will look up the variants to see if I can find a donor.  It is coned shaped and would require a skill set far surpassing my own to bring it back if that would even be possible. 

I appreciate all the advice and help I receive from this forum; a great group to be a part of. 

 

Ed... 

[Nucejoe]

20 hours ago, jdm said:

My advice is to not use a balance tack. They have no practical advantage but can easily distort hairsprings, as you have found yourself.

I agree, I am yet to find any pratical advantage of balance tack.

[ViktorH]

I use a tack every now and then. When removing the balance with spring from the cock, I put the assembly on the tack and a couple of pith wood logs under the balance to protect the lower pivot. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by ViktorH
Autocorrect

[Xilikon]

7 hours ago, ViktorH said:

I use a tack every now and then. When removing the balance with spring from the cock, I put the assembly on the tack and a couple of pith wood logs under the balance to protect the lower pivot. 

I have a balance tack but never thought about using pith wood to support the lower pivot, great idea!

[EdB]

This was my thought in making a service station to adjust balance complete.

[EdB]

On 3/18/2021 at 1:01 AM, Nucejoe said:

If coned shaped now, sorting out that hairspring will be painstaking. 

Dr ranfft lists five variants to AS1187, hairsprings interchange between them, so a scrap balance complete be a donor.   

 

Nucejoe, 

I went to the site and I am making the assumption you are referring to family as posted on the page. My understanding as to what is being referenced is sometimes confusing.  

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, EdB said:

Nucejoe, 

I went to the site and I am making the assumption you are referring to family as posted on the page. My understanding as to what is being referenced is sometimes confusing.  

Hi, The first design a caliber is produced which generally lacked complication is reffered to as the BASE CALIBER , a few years later a date( complication) was added and the customers welcomed the new member to the family, as the family grew in couple of years the third member came with day indicator to attract new customers. So each new  member of the family had new features such as Chronometer, Chronograph,  moonphase, alarm, quick set....etc.     

   Happy family HA. 

Some members may have just different bridge layout or no difference is known between them.

Regs 

Joe

[richiesgr]

Hi 

I'm exactly in the same state of mind. Discouraged.

But I think I'm doing it wrong. I've buy a lot of vintage movement and thought of course I'll be able to repair them but NO.

So until now I've try to service 4 movements. (FHF-67, FHF-96, AS1187, Seiko 2601A (this one is 18mm I'm insane ) 

Result: None of them working 

But I'm staying positive and I tell to myself it can be only better with the time. 

I think that I'm going now to service a new movement ST36 (much more larger so I think easier) and most important already working 

That was my little comment and my encouragement

Thanks    

[EdB]

Like everyone else stated on my post; stay positive and keep at it. With all of the things that went wrong with the movements I've worked on so much has went right. That being said I've learned tons making mistakes, and I know I am better at servicing then I was when I first started. It has also given me inspiration to create means to perform service without damage e.g. new tools designs that would help me reduce the chance of damaging parts. 

I've been able to source parts for the parts I damage previously and have managed to get everything up and running with the parts received thus far. I am waiting on other parts to complete all services. 

I would also like to pose a question for all of the other experienced watch makers. Why doesn't anyone show or state that they should replace balance complete after cleaning (if by hand) or leave in movement and inspect the roller jewel to insure it rests between the banking pins at this point in time instead of reassemble, lube and then place on the timegrapher. It makes so much more sense to check it at the onset instead of after complete reassembly?

[watchweasol]

Hi  When re assembling a watch different people do it in different ways, But I get your point with only the balance in the movement it is easier to see the roller and the impulse pin, Now if you add the fork into the movement you can hold the fork central and check its central and when let go it stays there. But of course the acid test is once assembled with two turns on the spring does the balance oscillate if so you are on a winner. Putting to the timing machine lets you see visually any minor descrepencies  like beat error and the rate error which without the machine you would have to do a 24hr test.  So all in all if you wish to do the visual before reassembly  then that is your choice, no hard and fast rules.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, richiesgr said:

Hi 

I'm exactly in the same state of mind. Discouraged.

But I think I'm doing it wrong. I've buy a lot of vintage movement and thought of course I'll be able to repair them but NO.

So until now I've try to service 4 movements. (FHF-67, FHF-96, AS1187, Seiko 2601A (this one is 18mm I'm insane ) 

Result: None of them working 

But I'm staying positive and I tell to myself it can be only better with the time. 

I think that I'm going now to service a new movement ST36 (much more larger so I think easier) and most important already working 

That was my little comment and my encouragement

Thanks    

That's why I started out with pocket watches - much bigger and easier to work on, though the screws seem tiny to start with. American watches (Waltham, Elgin etc) with 15 jewels are great to practice on, and parts can be found.

Once I felt more confident (after about 15 watches) I moved on to wristwatches - and still trashed a couple to start with.

[richiesgr]

Thanks Mike you giving me hope 

[AlexanderToerzs]

On 3/19/2021 at 4:29 AM, Nucejoe said:

I agree, I am yet to find any pratical advantage of balance tack.

I put a slice of large pith wood on it and keep my oilers there.  Cheers Alex.