L&R Cleaning Machines

[Nibbler]

pla seems to be working fine including the first ones I printed with embedded wood.

[B42Woody]

I ordered these silicone gaskets from Amazon.  After cutting off the side tabs, they fit perfectly in my printed lids.  I put water in a jar and the lid/gasket combination is watertight!  Success!!

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by B42Woody
Changed photo orientation

[Nibbler]

nice!

[B42Woody]

Folks,

I just purchased a Vari-Matic in perfect operating condition.  The numbers 12 29 67 are stamped into the hydraulic reservoir/aluminum base so I suppose it was made on 29 Dec 1967.

Does anybody know how to increase the spin-off time between stations?  I've found a couple YouTube videos from 2016 and 2011 but I can't reach those folks.  Can you please offer any advice or point me in the right direction?  I'd really like to make this modification but my electronics knowledge and skills are near zero.

Thanks!! Woody.

[ChrisRadek]

You can't, the time is fixed because the indexing motor runs a certain speed and it runs constantly until the basket drops into the next jar.

You should concentrate instead on making sure the spin-off speed is as high as possible without causing the fluid in the jar to swirl around and splash up and out.  All the speeds are controlled together with the rheostat you can set with a screwdriver.  But the proportions of the speeds to one another are controlled by the taps on the wirewound resistor that you can move.  I forget the exact details ... do you have the manual?  It's all spelled out.

My machine was wired wrong when I got it, giving a spinoff speed that was slower than the drying speed.  The spinoff was useless and the drying would wake the dead.  The spinoff is supposed to be faster than the dry, and it works great with that fixed.  I have been using it for 15 years now...?  Probably ran it six times today.

[ChrisRadek]

Just now, ChrisRadek said:

You can't, the time is fixed because the indexing motor runs a certain speed and it runs constantly until the basket drops into the next jar.

Sorry, "You can't" might be a little strong.  If you give up on using the electro-mechanical timing and synchronizing system built into the machine out of simple cams and switches, and replace all that with a computer of some kind, you can of course make it do whatever you want.  In my opinion that's unnecessary, and unnecessary computers should be avoided in things that I need to rely on for a long time.

[B42Woody]

1 hour ago, ChrisRadek said:

You can't, the time is fixed because the indexing motor runs a certain speed and it runs constantly until the basket drops into the next jar.

You should concentrate instead on making sure the spin-off speed is as high as possible without causing the fluid in the jar to swirl around and splash up and out.  All the speeds are controlled together with the rheostat you can set with a screwdriver.  But the proportions of the speeds to one another are controlled by the taps on the wirewound resistor that you can move.  I forget the exact details ... do you have the manual?  It's all spelled out.

My machine was wired wrong when I got it, giving a spinoff speed that was slower than the drying speed.  The spinoff was useless and the drying would wake the dead.  The spinoff is supposed to be faster than the dry, and it works great with that fixed.  I have been using it for 15 years now...?  Probably ran it six times today.

Thanks, Chris, for the quick reply!  I sincerely appreciate your help!!  At 6 times/day for 15 years, you really know this machine .

Yes, I have the original manual.  I'll review it and the information you provided and take your advice.  I might have a followup question or 2 ...

One more question now: Do you use L&R #3 for your rinses? My big concern is fire.  My heating element gets very hot (but NOT red hot).  I'm worried the #3 rinse might ignite if droplets land on the hot heating element.  That's why I'm so concerned about spin-off before moving over to the heater.

Thanks again!!!!

Woody

[ChrisRadek]

My rinse's jug just says L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinsing Solution.  An older one waiting for disposal does say #3 though, I don't know what the difference is.  I use the ammoniated #111 cleaner.

After the dry cycle, the basket on mine is too hot to touch for a few minutes.  I doubt there is any appreciable risk of fire if you are using the solutions meant for the machine.  I think we would have heard about it?

I will be interested to hear if you determine yours is also wired wrong (or what I call wrong, anyway?) in the way that gives a faster dry and slower spinoff.

Oh, does your fan run when the heater is on?  It should.

[oldhippy]

That's the same type of machine I had mine had the ultrasonic unit which the machine sits on and you just plug it in. That's the best machine I had using L & R  and I had had others in the workshop. 

[B42Woody]

13 hours ago, ChrisRadek said:

My rinse's jug just says L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinsing Solution.  An older one waiting for disposal does say #3 though, I don't know what the difference is.  I use the ammoniated #111 cleaner.

After the dry cycle, the basket on mine is too hot to touch for a few minutes.  I doubt there is any appreciable risk of fire if you are using the solutions meant for the machine.  I think we would have heard about it?

I will be interested to hear if you determine yours is also wired wrong (or what I call wrong, anyway?) in the way that gives a faster dry and slower spinoff.

Oh, does your fan run when the heater is on?  It should.

Thanks again, Chris!!

I read through the manual as you suggested and learned quite a bit (go figure!!).

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, my dryer fan runs perfectly.

2) I don't have a way to measure the basket rotational speed, but the spin-off speed seems to be faster than the drying speed .... or about the same.

The manual specifically lists L&R Extra Fine Watch Cleaning Solution and L&R #3 Watch Rinsing Solution as the recommended solutions.  I'll have to research the difference between the Extra Fine Watch Cleaning Solution and #111 but since you use #111, that's what I'll use, too.  It seems I have no worries about the #3 catching fire during drying.

How high do you fill your jars?  The manual says, "to the middle of the L&R on the jar".

When you clean watch parts, do you use the "Watch Basket" (smaller one) or the "Clock Basket" (larger one)?

If I'm reading the manual correctly, I should set the rheostat with the Clock Basket installed and the High-Low switch on High.  Then, set the adjustable resistor slider (Purple Wire) with the Watch Basket installed and the High-Low switch on Low.  Finally, set the drying speed with the other adjustable resistor slider (Orange Wire).

I think I'll do all my experimentation and adjustments with isopropyl alcohol.  That's a lot cheaper than the L&R solutions.

Thanks again for helping and sharing your experience.  I really appreciate it!!  Woody

[ChrisRadek]

I really only use the small baskets, I have three of them so I can fill one while another is running.  Often I use two baskets for the same watch, it takes two or more runs to clean everything, especially a chronograph or an 18s pocket watch where not everything will fit in there at once.

I have the ultrasonic unit so the jars have to be filled up above the L&R letters, and with the ultrasonic the fill level is very critical.  The fluid should be up the ultrasonic head about a cm when it's running.

If you are not using the ultrasonic I'd say fill them enough that the basket stays immersed when cleaning but is free of the fluid during spinoff.  It's not critical and you won't hurt anything if it's wrong.

I'm not so sure about using a bunch of alcohol...  that's really flammable and burns invisible, scary.  You can just run it with the jars empty for testing (but of course TURN OFF the ultrasonic if you have it).

Heck if you're just wanting to set your speeds and test spinoff etc, wouldn't water in the jars work fine?

[B42Woody]

11 hours ago, ChrisRadek said:

I really only use the small baskets, I have three of them so I can fill one while another is running.  Often I use two baskets for the same watch, it takes two or more runs to clean everything, especially a chronograph or an 18s pocket watch where not everything will fit in there at once.

I have the ultrasonic unit so the jars have to be filled up above the L&R letters, and with the ultrasonic the fill level is very critical.  The fluid should be up the ultrasonic head about a cm when it's running.

If you are not using the ultrasonic I'd say fill them enough that the basket stays immersed when cleaning but is free of the fluid during spinoff.  It's not critical and you won't hurt anything if it's wrong.

I'm not so sure about using a bunch of alcohol...  that's really flammable and burns invisible, scary.  You can just run it with the jars empty for testing (but of course TURN OFF the ultrasonic if you have it).

Heck if you're just wanting to set your speeds and test spinoff etc, wouldn't water in the jars work fine?

Thanks again, Chris!!

I'm glad you only use the small baskets - the large one is almost impossible to remove!

I don't have the ultrasonic base, unfortunately.  But, I'm on the lookout for one.  Hopefully I'll find one!

Thanks for the concern and warning regarding my use of alcohol for testing.  I put it only in jar #1.  Jars #2 and #3 are completely empty so the basket is nearly dry by the time it gets to the heater.  I would have used water but I was concerned something might rust - I guess everything that gets wet is made of stainless steel.  The manual states, "The machine is used at High Speed when using the Clock Basket in order to compensate for the heavier load.  Actually, the basket will rotate at the same speed as in Low when using the Watch Basket.".  So, I used the alcohol for the viscous Drag on the basket.

Thanks again!!!! Woody

[B42Woody]

A little update on the lids I had printed in PLA:

Ammonia vapors from L&R #111 pass through the printed lids with very little resistance.  The vapors don't seem to affect the print's structural properties, fortunately.

I reduced the vapors to nearly zero with 2 payers of clear plastic circles cut from a heavy plastic bag.  I sandwiched the plastic circles between the lid and the silicone Mason jar gaskets.  Doing it this way, the plastic circles stay in place when I remove the lids to run my machine.

If you're unfamiliar with L&R #111, it contains ammonia with very strong vapors (I recommend eye protection and gloves, at a minimum).  The L&R #3 rinse doesn't contain ammonia but it does have an odor.

[LittleWatchShop]

33 minutes ago, B42Woody said:

Ammonia vapors from L&R #111 pass through the printed lids with very little resistance

Interesting.  I have printed some gas can lids that seem to work well, but gasoline is a bigger molecule than the ammonia atom.

Are you printing at 100% fill?

[B42Woody]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:53 AM, LittleWatchShop said:

Are you printing at 100% fill?

I sent the STL file to my local makerplace for printing.  So, I'll have to get back to you with an answer.

FWIW, the print resolution seems to be very high (to me, anyway .... a complete noob to the 3D printing world).  Regardless of the resolution, I guess there will be porosity of some non-zero magnitude, right?  The lid top thickness is 2.22mm, BTW.

[LittleWatchShop]

6 minutes ago, B42Woody said:

The lid top thickness is 2.22mm, BTW

Post the stl file here.

[Nibbler]

I don't think the latest PLA ones I created are leaking, I have checked many times. I did the lids at 50% fill.

 

Matt

[LittleWatchShop]

What is the proper part distribution in the top basket?

There are four compartments.  So far, I dedicate the smallest compartment for the escape wheel and pallet fork.  If the train wheels fit, they go in the next larger basket...otherwise, the next larger one.

At present, I do not put the balance wheel or balance cock in the basket, but I am probably wrong about that...just being cautious.

The small plates go in the largest compartment.  The large plates go below.

Thoughts?

[watchweasol]

Hi Sounds like to me you have sorted it out pretty well, I would not put the balance in the cleaner but use "one Dip" or the modern equivalent or clean by hand carefully.  here is a video by our own  JD Richard no less.

 

[clockboy]

Whilst on the cleaning of hairsprings I noticed while browsing that Bergeron have replaced one dip with this. Interesting as it claims to help remove old oils which can be an issue with the vintage watches with fixed cap jewels.  I will give it a try.
 

 

[oldhippy]

Black Train Wheels

Green Keyless parts.

Yellow Escape Wheel & Pallets

Blue Screws.

Never put the Balance complete in the cleaner.

Plates, stem any other parts in the bottom basket.

[LittleWatchShop]

It bugged me that the L&R basket sets at an angle and is unstable.  So...I printed this holder for it.  Gonna make some improvements, but here it is for now.

 

[AshF]

9 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

L&R basket sets at an angle and is unstable

Ah, you mean when it's not on top of the basket.  I like it.

On 3/16/2021 at 1:18 PM, B42Woody said:

Ammonia vapors from L&R #111 pass through the printed lids with very little resistance

I too have printed some lids for my jars.  I've been testing them with IPA for 2 weeks now and seen very little evaporation, this is at 25% infill.  But I like the idea of using a plastic circle (with the gasket) to be doubly sure.  Thanks.

 

Related to L&R machines.  I'm in the UK so parts are hard to find for these American machines.  I'm looking for the tray insert that has 4 or 5 compartments, if anyone could help me out.  Ebay has them occasionally but the shipping to the UK is extortionate.

[LittleWatchShop]

21 minutes ago, AshF said:

top of the basket

Correct. During watch disassembly. Realized a flaw, however. Will post mod later today.

[LittleWatchShop]

Improvement

basket holder.stl