Jump to content
zenon

Staking Set Replacement Die-Plate

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

I just purchased on eBay well used staking set "Newstyle K & D Special" - 100 punches. I did not notice on the pictures that the die plate was badly damaged (chipped edges of several holes). Neither did notice it the seller, however, after I posted few close-up pictures the seller very kindly agreed to refund half of the sell price (I was sure I can find replacement plate somehow...). Few punches and stumps are easily replaced or even manufactured at home but the die plate is different story. No success thas far finding replacement or someone to manufacture one.

 

Would any of you guys know how do I go about it? How do I find spare parts, manufacturer place or whatever else that could solve my problem? Unfortunately (or fortunately :-) ) I am in Australia.

 

Any response greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not really a DIY job unless you have a good quality lathe, drill selection and a milling machine fitted with a rotary table. The part would also ideally be made with a piece of gauge plate that could be hardened and tempered and preferably flat ground to to the correct dimensions to finish it off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not think about manufacturing the die myself - last resolve would be to find someone with these tools and skills. I am asking about source for spare parts, replacement or at least a way to identify it - forgot to mention the plate has number 33 stamped onm the back. Are there any standards?

 

Thanks

Edited by zenon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello zenon,

 

Unfortunatly K&D is no longer in business. The plate is the most expensive piece on these kits and is described as just that in the K&D stake manual. The manuual suggests always use a stump or bench block on the plate to avoid this kind of damage. I fear your only option is to watch eBay and purchase another "parts" staking set to get a good plate. They come up often at very low cost, there are a number on now.

 

The newstyle staking set has the same plate as any of the inverto kits and I believe, even the non inverto.

 

The cost to have a machinist make one would far exceed buying many a replacement kit.

 

I hope thatt helps, although not a happy out come.

 

Stu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The cost to have a machinist make one would far exceed buying many a replacement kit.

 

I hope thatt helps, although not a happy out come.

 

Stu

Thank you. Even though the news is not that great it shows me options to look into (so I will not waste time trying impractical ideas). I am not surprised that it is the most expensive part; I will keep looking. :-)

 

The question remains though: How come that the plate chipped on the edges? Material/machining fault or just nasty abuse? Obviously, even if someone did not use it exactly as prescribed the chipping is suspicious. Is it possible that it could be due to fault in tempering? I guess these are more like a rhetorical questions...

 

Is there somewhere, by any chance, a drawing of the plate to see if there is enough material to grind it down?

 

Very appreciating

 

Zenon.

post-335-0-52397700-1428291456_thumb.jpg

Edited by zenon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not done this, but have you tried to turn it upside down and make a recess with a lathe?

I assume that you are thinking about tuning the die upside down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the small hole sizes are counter bored on the underside to save having to drill deep micro holes all the way through the plate. This would render the small holes useless if the die was reversed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Zenon. I will give my opinion and you follow it if you want. Check the thickness of your die-plate holes to be shure that it is deep enough for a surface rectifier. If there is material enough, you can take it to an mechanic shop (I don't know the correct name in english) where they take a car motor and rectify the cylinder head. This work is made with a special lathe that have a griding stone that turn and remove a small layer from the cylinder head (in your case, your die-plate surface). It is a very slow work due the hardness of the steel of the dye-plate). The layer to be removed is thick enough to disapear all chips of all holes, keeping the horizontally of the dye-plate surface.

If you can do this, your stake set will be like new and with the correct use and correct force when riveting, it will be for life. Keep it oiled against rusty. It is commom you see staking sets black of rusty but working fine.

Good luck.

Ricardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume that you are thinking about tuning the die upside down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the small hole sizes are counter bored on the underside to save having to drill deep micro holes all the way through the plate. This would render the small holes useless if the die was reversed.

 

Geo is correct. The holes are counter bored and would not allow a swap of sides. Not to mention the machining required.

 

Hi Zenon. I will give my opinion and you follow it if you want. Check the thickness of your die-plate holes to be shure that it is deep enough for a surface rectifier. If there is material enough, you can take it to an mechanic shop (I don't know the correct name in english) where they take a car motor and rectify the cylinder head. This work is made with a special lathe that have a griding stone that turn and remove a small layer from the cylinder head (in your case, your die-plate surface). It is a very slow work due the hardness of the steel of the dye-plate). The layer to be removed is thick enough to disapear all chips of all holes, keeping the horizontally of the dye-plate surface.

If you can do this, your stake set will be like new and with the correct use and correct force when riveting, it will be for life. Keep it oiled against rusty. It is commom you see staking sets black of rusty but working fine.

Good luck.

Ricardo

 

Although, a great idea, the temper is only skin deep so if the surface is milled (milling machine) to a new surface, the temper in the plate would be lost and require new surface temper. Read cost. K&D does a rockwell temper test on all plates (evident by a small prick mark) so, again, your best bet is to aquire a parts kit and replace the plate.

 

Pleaase don't shoot the messanger.

 

Stu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geo is correct. The holes are counter bored and would not allow a swap of sides. Not to mention the machining required.

 

 

Although, a great idea, the temper is only skin deep so if the surface is milled (milling machine) to a new surface, the temper in the plate would be lost and require new surface temper. Read cost. K&D does a rockwell temper test on all plates (evident by a small prick mark) so, again, your best bet is to aquire a parts kit and replace the plate.

 

Pleaase don't shoot the messanger.

 

Stu

I do like the idea from RicardoG. Grinding the surface down. I need to measure (somehow) the depth of the micro holes (they all are countersunk from the bottom) - if there is enough material for the grinding... As for the tempering I am not sure if it is just surface only (only surface would be hardened while case hardening where the surface of an item made of low carbon steel in 'infused' with carbon). I think tempering after hardening acts throughout the piece but I am not 100% sure.

 

I can see two options now: grinding or finding replacement. I am not risking anything with grinding because the plate is already useless. I actually might try to do DIY hand grinding first on say diamond plate.

 

Thank you all for your input! :-) I will post results on the DIY hand grinding soon - I would not get this idea without your suggestions - thanks again.

 

That is very helpful

Zenon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geo is correct. The holes are counter bored and would not allow a swap of sides. Not to mention the machining required.

 

 

Although, a great idea, the temper is only skin deep so if the surface is milled (milling machine) to a new surface, the temper in the plate would be lost and require new surface temper. Read cost. K&D does a rockwell temper test on all plates (evident by a small prick mark) so, again, your best bet is to aquire a parts kit and replace the plate.

 

Pleaase don't shoot the messanger.

 

Stu

 

Hi Stu. You can be right but I have my doubts if zenon can find onother dye-plate that's fit correctly (center pin, distance of the holes from the center that align with the stake, etc.). I have a similar problem that I didn't find a solution. I bought at ebay a stack base from Star for 10 GBP, a bargain. However, when I get it, I saw that it have a very strange dye-table, with very different holes that will not be useful for me till I figure what is the purpose for this holes. I can post a photo if you want to enlight me. Since of that, I am looking for another dye-table that fit on my Star base but no success.

 

I do like the idea from RicardoG. Grinding the surface down. I need to measure (somehow) the depth of the micro holes (they all are countersunk from the bottom) - if there is enough material for the grinding... As for the tempering I am not sure if it is just surface only (only surface would be hardened while case hardening where the surface of an item made of low carbon steel in 'infused' with carbon). I think tempering after hardening acts throughout the piece but I am not 100% sure.

 

I can see two options now: grinding or finding replacement. I am not risking anything with grinding because the plate is already useless. I actually might try to do DIY hand grinding first on say diamond plate.

 

Thank you all for your input! :-) I will post results on the DIY hand grinding soon - I would not get this idea without your suggestions - thanks again.

 

That is very helpful

Zenon

 

Hi again zenon. May be the temper surface is enough to grinding. Check with the people who can milling your dye-table. To find another dye-table that fit on your base, that is a hard problem.

 

Ricardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anybody know for what kind of work it serves this dye-table? Maybe I have a nice tool in hands and don't know.

Each inner have a different diameter hole but the pokes are same dimentions. Obs. Inner 1 missed.

I am looking for a normal dye-table with several holes with different gauges that fit in my Star staking base.

post-688-0-23729000-1428422229_thumb.jpg

Edited by RicardoG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good(?) news! There is the question mark because it will show in usage but after 3h 40min of grinding by hand I've arrived at very satisfactory outcome.

1. I used very old, kind of, microscope/eyepiece 30X mag. and LED torch to find the thickness of the micro holes - roughly 1mm - 1.5mm

2. I found diamond knife sharpening block (really cheap in our local Aldi store) with four different grits: 200, 300, 400 and 600.

3. Gradually under running water I honed the plate 0.3mm down. Measured with micrometer every so often it came out flat within 0.01mm.

It needed quite a pressure to grind it - hard, hard surface.

Initial hardness testing (using sharpened file) indicates that the surface does not scratch at all but it will show in the usage. The other problem is the
remaining thickness. One issue is I lost the little dimple that I have no idea what it is for.

I think I will try to grind it with finer grit, like 1200.

At the moment I am happy with the job - although my elbows need rest :-). The important bit was to keep checking the thickness around the plate.

 

The power of several minds!

 

Thank you all. :-)

post-335-0-77018500-1428455534_thumb.jpg

Edited by zenon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's an excellent result Zenon, very well done indeed. I wouldn't worry about loosing the dimple, it could have been from hardness testing during manufacture.

It's also good to know where to buy cheap diamond slips! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job zenon. But you was so fast in your task that I didn't thave time to warning you about grinding by hand. It is about leveling. The prior purpose of a stake set is keep the punch perfectly perpendicular to the table and, of course, the balance that rest over it. If your grinding tilt the surface of the dye-table a little bit, it is possible that your riveting staf and balance weel be tilted too and you will need to align it after. Hope not, just a perfectionism. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[...]

Hope not, just a perfectionism. 

Thanks RicardoG for your concern but no problems. I mentioned above that I got the plate parallel within half a thou (0.01mm). I kept measuring it every so often for flatness and parallelism of the top and bottom surfaces around the plate. It came out quite good - could not really ask for more. Still I will keep looking for a replacement (or spare).

Edited by zenon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe the dimple was for positioning it? I still see a little bit of it so maybe it could be restored...In any case, it is a great and impressive job you've done there! 

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are quite a few models of staking tools out there. Watching videos (including Marks) there is one important difference: in some the plates can move rather freely on the locking shaft/axel; in others the plate can just rotate with virtually no cross movement mine is like that). These  'fixed' plates must match precisely particular model.

 

RicardoG - which is your model and how would you identify it one is good for your frame? How would I look for one?

 

On the one I got there is number 33 punched on the bottom of the plate (K & D).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can explain you what I understood by watching videos and photos,etc. As you, I saw these two kind of sets and the kind that only turn or rotate the table (sometimes called anvil), you can adjust or align the punch by rotating a bush at the top neck of the set. This bush have a non centered hole (where you insert the punch) and by turning it and rotating the table you can find the alignment (you must use a special punch that is like an arrow, just for align with the hole). After this alignment, you fix the table and fix the bush at the neck. Remove the center punch and insert the one you will use to stake.

The models that have no bush at the neck or a centered hole bush, you can by unlock the table, rotate and translate it to find the perfect alignment.

My stake base is the king I describe first, from Star, and I can only turn the table. I am not regreted to buy it just because it was a bargain. I never in two years of search of parts to make my "poor guy stake set" saw dye-tables to sell. Even if you find one to sell, it must be the same brand (in my case Star), just for fit correctly. There are several points to take in consideration to fit a new table. The diameter of the table (distance of the holes from the center), the dimentions of the center pin, the kind of locking pin, etc,

Even at Bergeon catalog you can get several punches and stakes to sell apart, but no dye-tables. You found a solution for your problem but in my case I have not so luck.

I found in an old Bergeon catalog the model of my set (called Stauffer - Tool to determine and to mark the place of studs on balances) and there is an explanation how to use it. I really try to understand but I cannot.

I will make a digitalization of the page and will post soon. May be you can understand and explain to me  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...