Watchmaker lathe head

[LittleWatchShop]

Should I disassemble this and clean it?  How?  My Dad must have been able to take it apart because it has a continuous belt.

There is a knurled nut on one end...the obvious place to start.  What I don't know...will ball bearings go flying or are they installed in a race that will not come apart?

[LittleWatchShop]

Here is a video showing a different version but it is quite similar.  Looks like I have to knock it out.

 

[Jon]

Funnily enough, that's the video I made.

It should be pretty much like it is in the vid

[nickelsilver]

The larger brass rings at either end are friction fitted and pop off. These are the covers for the oiling point, you should oil it every use. At the drawbar end is the knurled nut you mention, remove that (it's a "spring" fit so normal to feel tight- but some might have a set screw- check). There's a set screw in the pulley, remove that.

 

This is a plain bearing machine, no ball bearings . You need to push the spindle out, usually you will need to tap it with a brass drift. When it's all apart you'll have the spindle, the rear male bearing that fits on the spindle, and the pulley.

 

When going back together pay extra attention to fitting the rear male bearing, it has a little key that lines up with a slot in the spindle.

[JohnR725]

Equally as important to occasionally cleaning it is to remember to put oil in the bearings. It's amazing how many people don't realize that and run the lathe with the bearings dry which is definitely not what you want to do. 's amazing if there lubricated the last almost forever. Conceivably they will last forever we just don't have enough time to verify that in our lives.

[LittleWatchShop]

Disassembled, cleaned, reassembled. Boy is it pretty now! Heading to the hardware store to get a good oil.

I have lots of different kinds of oil around here.  JD recommended 0W20 synthetic which I don't have.

I have Hoppes that I use on guns.  Any thoughts on that?

Edited February 20, 2021 by LittleWatchShop
added photo, cleaned up grammar!!

[LittleWatchShop]

6 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Disassembled, cleaned, reassembled. Boy is it pretty now! Heading to the hardware store to get a good oil.

I have lots of oil around here.  JD recommended 0W20 synthetic.  I don't have any here.

I have Hoppes that I use on guns.  Any thoughts on that?

For the very short term, I will use 3in1 while I wait for the synthetic 0W20 to arrive.

[jdm]

Not to split hairs but I don't think there is any advantage in using engine oil on machinery. No damage will occur but is not made for that.

Without going to lengths, engine oil must work and maintain its properties under high temperatures, pressures,  and exposition to contaminants, plus it must deliver a bunch of other features. Nothing or very little of that exists in a machine tool. And if it's of synthetic formulation its characteristics (mainly, extended service life) do not have a chance of being triggered. 

So you will find that machine oil, from a sewing machine to a plain bearings lathe to geared machines is different, and is graded differently to begin with, using ISO VG scale where 68 is equivalent to SAE 20 viscosity. Unfortunately it is not sold at the parts store or hardware store and it comes in large drums only. I wanted to get some for my lathe small gearbox but struggled to find any packaging under 3 liters. So I just got gear oil from the auto parts shop, all is good with it but is not what the manufacturer recommends.

Interesting in their industrial opulence the US even has a magazine dedicated to this subject specifically https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/411/oil-viscosity

 

 

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

it comes in large drums only

Yup

[JohnR725]

I have a question which is which spindle oil should we be purchasing? As to the Mobil oil I have a link apparently comes in different variations. Then a variety of links where you can buy spindle oil at a variety of prices including smaller quantities everywhere including eBay but do we really need number three? The reason is it's a little harder to get.

Then the fourth link to eBay answer to question which was spindle oil and a separate oil for the Sliding components like to cross slide of course this is indicated for Bridgeport doesn't say how big of a Bridgeport though? Then of course the mobile oils are the wrong numbers are not number three.

Looks like eBay is probably the best for a small quantity.

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-businesses/industrial/lubricants/products/products/mobil-velocite-oil-no-3

https://www.mcmaster.com/spindle-oil/

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=Spindle+oil&_sacat=0

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Spindle+Oil&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-PINT-EA-SPINDLE-OIL-VELOCITE-6-VACTRA-2-MILL-LATHE-GRINDER/300860482514?hash=item460caea3d2:g:FUEAAOxy0rZRGUU2

Then I went to see if anyone disagrees with the lubrication we should be using? The first link is interesting video on  successfully purchasing  a lathe and book references which I found interesting.

Also of interest in the video is the book references. Plus there's one of the latest books which you can download for free so is a link for that. Then his favorite recommendation for book is "The Modern Watchmaker's Lathe and How to Use it by Archie Perkins" In case you think he's over praising the book he's not it really is an outstanding book.

As I have a copy of Archie's book let's see if he actually knows which sort oil you should be using. First recommendation is Nye lathe oil If you can get it and I'm not finding it online so I guess the answer is no we can't get it. The second one is interesting because it's made by the same company who made the first one and is available on Amazon for $20 for small bottle so that recommendation is NyOil Is available on Amazon for $20 for a small bottle. Then his recommendation probably frowned on by us is to use a good grade of clock oil.

https://youtu.be/aACigsD6jnA

The next link is interesting as They do like the mobile spindle oil  but there's slightly different recommendations. Like #6 Or #10 Depending upon the speed of your spindle.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/lubrication-of-watchmakers-lathe-spindles.14661/

The next link because I saw a reference to Bridgeport and I want to see what sort of recommendations too poor for that and this one is interesting because it answers a question. In case you're curious what was the question? It is if you're going to get nitpicky over the's mental lubrication there's a lot of confusion. Then comparing with the Bridgeport isn't entirely fair because the Bridgeport spindle is so much bigger than the watchmaker's  lathe.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/bridgeport-and-hardinge-mills-and-lathes/what-mobil-oil-bp-spindle-300052/

Another discussion group with a list of recommendations

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewtopic.php?t=58677

 

 

 

 

 

 

GL-XX-Mobil-Velocite-Oil-No-Series.pdf Lubricant Cross Reference Chart.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The next link is interesting as They do like the mobile spindle oil  but there's slightly different recommendations. Like #6 Or #10 Depending upon the speed of your spindle.

I came across this the other day.  As I recall, my searching gave me no near-term solution.  I also did not know how fast my motor spun so I would not be able to differentiate based on spindle speed.  Alas!

 

I have a Racine Jewelers Lathe Motor Model 7758, Type 140 Spec. 3-4

Edited February 21, 2021 by LittleWatchShop

[LittleWatchShop]

Here is #6 and #10 in pint sizes

[JohnR725]

I suspect in real life you could use almost any oil including automotive oil to lubricate your way and you probably be okay. Yes there's better stuff to use but our applications aren't really that critical. For instance the first link. This roll down far enough somebody tells a story of basically someone in production during the war couldn't get the proper oil used SAE 30 automotive oil And after running it for quite some time to take it apart there is no problem at all.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/spindle-oil-320198/

Farther down the discussion is a reference to avoid lubricants with detergent. apparently non-detergent oil to wash any particles out which makes me wonder what particles were talking about? It's a problem of comparing machinist lathes with watchmaker's lathe is they've not exactly the same.

Here's an interesting website and of course they are view on lubrication

http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page17.html

They also have a nice section on watchmaker Lathes

http://www.lathes.co.uk/watchmaker/

We start off with the usual basically nobody has any idea what they're doing even though they do mean well. Which is typically the way always discussions are going. At the very and though the last one it looks like #6 is what were supposed to be using and then there's some references to automobile oil. Apparently though 3 and 1 is out.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/lubrication-when-using-the-lathe.28810/

 

 

[HectorLooi]

Ok. Don't judge me.

I've been using a mixture of gear oil and Singer sewing machine oil on my lathe for the past 2 years. I clean it often and don't see abnormal wear. 

[nickelsilver]

Most watchmaker lathes have plain bearings. The majority are hard steel spindle on hard steel stationary bearings, some have bronze bearings and some cast iron. Almost all are adjustable for wear (the only one I know of with no provision for radial wear is the Steiner design). All of these are what is known as "constant loss" lubrication. That means you put oil in the bearing, and it works its way out during use- either from gravity, or being slung onto your shirt. The downside it you have to check and top up the oil frequently. The upside is they are very tolerant of lubrication differences. Like John said you can use just about anything, and always, something is better than nothing. I have seen machines that are for all intents and purposes the same as a watchmaker lathe regarding the bearings, with many 10s of thousands of hours of industrial use, and they are almost always still in very usable condition.

 

In larger machines where there is an oil reservoir, like large engine lathes, you have to be more careful about oil type. What John linked to above goes into it; essentially motor oils are designed to pick up any wear particles and then carry them to the filter where they are removed. In a machine tool, the idea is any wear particles will return to the sump and then decant out; with a motor oil they would be recirculated causing damage. In a constant loss system they will just become part of the oil mess on and around the machine. 

 

As I have a bunch of machines I don't mind buying a 5 liter jug of oil. I use an equivalent to Mobile Velocite 10, with is an ISO 22 oil for spindles. If I ran out of that I wouldn't hesitate to use sewing machine oil, or 3 in 1, or whatever oil was at hand. There are folks who repackage Mobile and other maker's oils in pints and sell on Ebay,  I think a pint is about 10 bucks and should last an average occasional  several years at least.

 

I think it was mentioned above, but for cross slides you will want a slideway oil. You won't hurt it with other oils (but do not use grease!), but it will work better with slideway oil as they have tackifiers which help it stick to the different surfaces without causing "sticktion". Mobile Vactra 2 is the standard, and any other maker will have an equivalent, you want an ISO 68 slide oil. Again, can be found in smaller quantities on Ebay.

Edited February 22, 2021 by nickelsilver

[Tore]

I didnt know it is bronze bearing in some lathes. But this i know: i have some experience(from repairing and forums) at Sachs light motorcycle motors from the 50-60is. They have bronze bearings inside, and if modern engine oils is used, the additives in these are agressive to the bronze. Heavily etse damage at the bronze over time. Important to use GL-1 oil(without additives) in those engine, and not GL-2-4 motor oil.

[nickelsilver]

19 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I came across this the other day.  As I recall, my searching gave me no near-term solution.  I also did not know how fast my motor spun so I would not be able to differentiate based on spindle speed.  Alas!

 

I have a Racine Jewelers Lathe Motor Model 7758, Type 140 Spec. 3-4

The old watchmaker lathe motors that were common in the U.S. were universal (AC/DC), with quite a high top speed of 6-10,000 rpm. They were typically controlled with a rheostat foot pedal. The main issue with them is they have very little torque once you reduce the speed; thus they often had very small pulleys which already gave something like a 3:1 ratio to the large step on the lathe pulley, and in better cases were used with a countershaft which allowed further reduction. There were generic countershafts available to fit right on to most motors too. When I was starting out I had one of the latter, and coupled it with a Variac and a foot switch that was press/on lift/off as I hated hunting for speed with my foot. Even with the countershaft they tend to slow down as soon as you start cutting. If you get serious about turning it's worthwhile to look at some constant speed (near) constant torque options; there are industrial sewing machine motors to be found on Ebay that fit the bill, and the Sherline motor setup is quite good too. I use a 3 phase constant speed motor with countershaft haha but there's 3 phase power available everywhere here.

[jdm]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

If you get serious about turning it's worthwhile to look at some constant speed (near) constant torque options; there are industrial sewing machine motors to be found on Ebay that fit the bill, and the Sherline motor setup is quite good too.

Still a DC motor of limited performances, and very expensive for what it is. They claim that it offers maximum torque at low RPM, I would love to verify this claim by parting off even just 25mm dia. leaded steel - altough I suspect that will be stressing for the aluminum bed too. I know that my similarly sized Unimat 3 copy can't, despite also coming come with a  "load compensation" speed  control circuit board. I see that under heavy load it tries to do that, but In the end the torque is too little, and the pulley ratio too high. At least the Sherline has two steps pulleys, while mine doesn't, at least not until I will change that.

Quote

I use a 3 phase constant speed motor with countershaft haha but there's 3 phase power available everywhere here.

If the motor doesn't require high voltage (400V), and normally that is the case, one can use a single phase inverter up to a quite sizeable power. Then the issue may become insisting to fit the upgraded motor where the original was. I can tell you that you will make you learn fast about No. of poles, mechanical sizing, non-standard Chinese flange patterns and shaft sizes, brushless  "downsized" motors, and bunch of other lovely stuff.

[nickelsilver]

Before I moved to 3ph, I had a permanent magnet DC motor with electronic controller; this was about 20 years ago but I recall it was listed as "treadmill duty" 0-90v, no other specs, it was like 8cm diameter; the controller was a simple board (was maybe 120 dollars) and potentiometer and I added on/off forward/reverse switches. At about 30 rpm if I grabbed the pulley it'd try to twist my hand off! I liked it as it replaced an integrated motor on my lathe base and I integrated the switches all neat and clean; when I found my little 3 phase  it was so smooth I scrapped the DC.

 

True a cheap VFD will run a small 240v 3ph motor on single phase no problem.

[LittleWatchShop]

Lots of these in Ebay.  Seems like a lot more power than you need, but that is fine.

[nickelsilver]

Those would be used as spindles for milling machines or routers, they are designed to take cutting tools in their spindle.

43 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Lots of these in Ebay.  Seems like a lot more power than you need, but that is fine.

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Those would be used as spindles for milling machines or routers, they are designed to take cutting tools in their spindle.

I doubt that the bearings would be an issue. The concern I would have is these are designed to go relatively fast I don't really think we need a lathe motor that goes that fast. I've heard these things really scream when the running the noise could be an issue. Then the speed of 0 to 12,000 RPM How much speedily need anyway?

That was looking at eBay I have some links below they all look like classic watchmaker lathe motors.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Working-Watchmakers-Lathe-Motor-Watch-Craft-Brand-Ac-Dc-115v-1-10-H-P-Vintage/274579850978

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watchmakers-Lathe-Universal-motors-AC-DC-Reversible-1-8hp-115-volts-42-00/143557759411

This one was looking quite promising other than the location. Which explains the high shipping cost and then there's the minor voltage issue depending upon where you live in the world.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Watchmakers-lathe-motor-foot-pedal/284186299730