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Heuer Quartz running fast


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Hi Everyone,

 I have a 1980s Heuer quartz watch with an ETA 918.113 movement which has been in the drawer for a number of years. I recently put a new battery in it and it started working apparently fine.

However it sometimes gains at a rate of 10’s of seconds per minute when worn.

It keeps good time in all positions when static on the bench, but sometimes gains rapidly on the wrist. It appears to be stepping fast or double stepping and then going back to a single step each second. Once off the wrist it settles down again to a normal rate again.

I have opened it and removed and cleaned the rotor and intermediate wheel with rodico as I thought the rotor might be the problem. But this has made no difference.

Any ideas please ? Do I need to undertake a full strip down, or is there likely to be a cause I can focus on.

I have posted a short video of the watch running erratically on youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYsZXxUTQM

Thanks,

Kim.

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ETA 918? Maybe 958? Can you check that again or post a picture.

In any case, there isn't much that can be done on quartz modules beside swapping parts. So you will neet to a circuit board and/or other parts, as well the spend the related to tryal and error. The alternative is to directly get a working replacement module.

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14 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

 The movement is  ETA 963.116

Probably a long shot and not convenient giving the ordering hassle, but startimesupply lists a circuit board/coil for cheap.
You can also do a bit of research to find what is the current ETA product that can directly replace your.

 

14 minutes ago, KimBowers said:

Hopefully a picture of the movement is attached.

Yes but isn't immediately visible. On the internet only use .JPG or .PNG.

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My guess is that since it is going fast rather than slow or stopping the quartz crystal is the most likely source of the issue.

image.thumb.png.cdd9fee93a41b3a90ccc96ae703d0e77.png


Dampness, physical damage or even just becoming loose in the casing will affect the rate of the crystal.


If you are up for a bit of micro-soldering then you could try swapping the crystal.

They are readily available on ebay and very inexpensive.

Edited by AndyHull
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Thanks everyone. I'll focus on the crystal and circuit board.

One more clue is that the issue may be temperature rather than movement related.

I tried putting the watch in a 29C temperature controlled environment (our airing cupboard) and get the same symptoms.  

 

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1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

crystal is probably the cheapest option to start with

I Think it would be better if you just replace the entire circuit board. You don't actually know what the circuit itself is doing and this would solve the integrated circuit having a problem and the quartz crystal everything it in one package. Then these watches were made quite a while ago I would think about cleaning it. Contrary to popular belief quartz watches actually need to be cleaned like a mechanical watch from time to time.

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5 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I dont think this is a capacitor issue, nor do I think it is a crystal issue.  It is a mechanical issue of some sort.

If you can offer any conjecture about a how a quartz watch may happen to run fast for mechanical reasons I will be happy to hear it. 

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5 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Oh wait...I dont think this is a capacitor issue, nor do I think it is a crystal issue.  It is a mechanical issue of some sort.

It's not a mechanical issue. Typically on quartz watches if there is slow beyond a few seconds per month it's a mechanical issue in other words there's some reason why the gear train can't rotate. Like the watches never been cleaned lubrication went bad dust is amazing how little dust and upset a quartz watch. But typically fast is something in the electronics. Because the electronics on a watch even though we visually can see it is basically considered a black box you just replace the whole thing.

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2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Like the watches never been cleaned lubrication went bad dust is amazing how little dust and upset a quartz watch. But typically fast is something in the electronics. Because the electronics on a watch even though we visually can see it is basically considered a black box you just replace the whole thing.

Indeed the electronics could be running fast, but it will not be the fault of the crystal--not when it is 10 seconds per minute.  Also, the watch is keeping good time while static in all positions. How would the electronics know when the watch is on the wrist?  Well, maybe there is an intermittent connection (e.g., coil or battery) but I would think that would slow the watch down...not speed it up.

I would see how easily the minute hand can be moved while running.

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5 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Also, the watch is keeping good time while static in all positions. How would the electronics know when the watch is on the wrist?

It appears to be I did not read or pay attention to the fine details of the original question.

I am kind of attaching the tech sheet for this watch? The reason for the peculiar wording is this is a tech sheet for the 963.114 and 963.124. Which is more or less identical sort of to the 963.116. 

What makes this tech sheet interesting is it has the older circuit. It's a flexible circuit board with a separate coil. The flexible circuit boards were interesting. Interesting in that there is a women's version similar to this watch with a flexible circuit board where the crystal could break free of the circuit board sort of. It wasn't is attached as firmly as it should have been later versions came with a drop of epoxy hold it in place. When it would break it would sometimes work at other times it would vibrate and just cause all kinds of peculiarities in the running of the watch because it was an unstable oscillator. That same kind of unstable if there'd been any moisture damage battery leaking ever in this watch could do the same thing if any of the oscillator components are compromised.

I have a suspicion personally that if you just replace the circuit board the problem would go away. Then as jdm Mentioned up above*time has the correct circuit board.

https://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_code=CB963116

938_Eta 963.114, 963.124.pdf

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49 minutes ago, jdm said:

If you can offer any conjecture about a how a quartz watch may happen to run fast for mechanical reasons I will be happy to hear it. 

I know I'm being pedantic, but since a quartz crystal is an eletro-mechanical device, the two principal things that will affect its rate are electrical or mechanical.


Generally crystals are both electrically and mechanically isolated from their surroundings as much as practically possible for this very reason.


If you take an oscillating crystal and strike it sharply, and watch the results on an oscilloscope you will see what I mean.

If the mechanical isolation of the tuning fork from the case has been compromised, then placing the crystals in different orientations will cause it to change resonance, or stop resonating completely, or start running at twice or half of its rated frequency, or indeed any other frequency.


Likewise subjecting the crystal to damp, chemical ingress, extreme heat, hard radiation, cold or mechanical stress may cause it to fracture, or alter its resonance and like a cracked bell, it may then resonate in a number of different modes, depending on its environment and the nature of the damage.

Damaged crystals can cause some very interesting equipment faults, from systems that wont run, seemingly at random, to timing issues, software acting strangely and all sorts of other bizarre, but related gremlins.

In other words, mechanically moving the watch, may cause it to run at a different rate, due to mechanical disturbance of a mechanically damaged crystal. ?

Edited by AndyHull
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.. all that having been said, there is also the possibility that lack of lubrication may cause the impulse from the quartz oscillator and coil to have difficulty in running the stepper at the correct angle per step, and though this will generally cause it to go slow, it might just be possible for it to "micro-step" and jump in odd and interesting ways. I agree that it would be unlikely to run significantly fast due to mechanical issues, but lack of maintenance can make the rate erratic.

My hunch is that it is the oscillator though, but unless you have access to an oscilloscope or a frequency counter/meter then that may be a little difficult to prove.

Check the board under magnification for cracked solder joints and corrosion.

Edited by AndyHull
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Generally crystals are both electrically and mechanically isolated from their surroundings as much as practically possible for this very reason.

>>Correct, but they are designed to withstand normal use.  They do not like sonic assembly techniques because it generally breaks the crystal (a binary result).  Not the case here.

If you take an oscillating crystal and strike it sharply, and watch the results on an oscilloscope you will see what I mean.

>>Agree, this will happen

If the mechanical isolation of the tuning fork from the case has been compromised, then placing the crystals in different orientations will cause it to change resonance, or stop resonating completely, or start running at twice or half of its rated frequency, or indeed any other frequency.

>>Crystals are designed so that their orientation or how they are attached does not affect their performance--at least to the first order.  The original post indicates that static in all positions runs fine.

Likewise subjecting the crystal to damp, chemical ingress, extreme heat, hard radiation, cold or mechanical stress may cause it to fracture, or alter its resonance and like a cracked bell, it may then resonate in a number of different modes, depending on its environment and the nature of the damage.

>>They are hermetically sealed.  Damp environment does not effect the crystal itself.  If the crystal case is compromised (a hole or crack) then water, chemicals, etc. are indeed a problem.  Mechanical stress...fracture...etc...yield bad results. BUT, the crystal would quit oscillating...not just increase 20%.

Damaged crystals can cause some very interesting equipment faults, from systems that wont run, seemingly at random, to timing issues, software acting strangely and all sorts of other bizarre, but related gremlins.

>>Crystals will 1) oscillate at their desired frequency (+/-), 2) oscillate at a harmonic, 3) not oscillate at all, or 4) intermittent oscillation. 

The original post said that the watch ran fine when stationary.  Only when wearing did it gain time.  And...it only GAINED time...never lost time.  I can think of no situation where a crystal will run 20% faster (ish).

I dont mind pedantics...this is an interesting topic.

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8 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

.. all that having been said, there is also the possibility that lack of lubrication may cause the impulse from the quartz oscillator and coil to have difficulty in running the stepper at the correct angle per step, and though this will generally cause it to go slow, it might just be possible for it to "micro-step" and jump in odd and interesting ways. I agree that it would be unlikely to run significantly fast due to mechanical issues, but lack of maintenance can make the rate erratic.

My hunch is that it is the oscillator though, but unless you have access to an oscilloscope or a frequency counter/meter then that may be a little difficult to prove.

Check the board under magnification for cracked solder joints and corrosion.

How you gonna mount an oscilloscope on his arm?  It works fine in a static position.

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7 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

How you gonna mount an oscilloscope on his arm?  It works fine in a static position.

I suspect oscilloscope's have shrunk since the days of vacuum tubes. Although they didn't really shrink until They got rid of the CRT. We can probably find a tiny oscilloscope or we can attach really long wires to the oscilloscope and totally screw up the circuitry. But there should also be a test points on the circuit. Usually on the watch circuits there's a test point for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately just don't know why there's a test point on This circuit.

One of the purposes of the test point is on watches that do not have second hands. Typically though step every 20 seconds up to a minutes depending upon the circuit. So the test point would allow you to short that to ground and then the circuit would speed up considerably the outputs to the stepping motor. I circled the test point on this circuit so it was used for something whether or not we could use that I don't know.

test point quartz watch.JPG

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7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I suspect oscilloscope's have shrunk since the days of vacuum tubes. Although they didn't really shrink until They got rid of the CRT. We can probably find a tiny oscilloscope or we can attach really long wires to the oscilloscope and totally screw up the circuitry. But there should also be a test points on the circuit. Usually on the watch circuits there's a test point for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately just don't know why there's a test point on This circuit.

LOL...all very impractical.

But yes, scopes have shrunk since vacuum tubes.  There are some small ones that will output to your smart phone.  I have a small one that you could attach to your belt perhaps.

It is not the oscillator--that is my wager.

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9 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

It is not the oscillator--that is my wager.

If it's not the oscillator are you suggesting a mechanical issues?

Then an easy way to figure out if it's a electrical problem or a mechanical problem would be to just replace the entire circuit. Then convince the original poster to mail you the old circuit and then you can verify that it's not an oscillator issue.

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4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

If it's not the oscillator are you suggesting a mechanical issues?

Then an easy way to figure out if it's a electrical problem or a mechanical problem would be to just replace the entire circuit. Then convince the original poster to mail you the old circuit and then you can verify that it's not an oscillator issue.

Yes, I am suggesting mechanical issues.

I would be happy to test his oscillator.  I have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering...have designed oscillators throughout my career...have designed discrete oscillators using crystals and just RLC circuits.  I have designed integrated circuit oscillators using crystals.  And, I have a fully-outfitted modern electronic laboratory to do the test.

Replacing the entire circuit is certainly a good test.  If I were him, and I had another board available, that is what I would try...because it is easy.

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2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Yes, I am suggesting mechanical issues

Just to be clear here mechanical issues with the electronic components or mechanical issues with the watch itself in other words the gears the stepping motor etc.

 

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