Mainspring lubrication, manual and automatic

[Karimn51]

I know they say to lubricate the bridle of the mainspring, but does the rest of the mainspring need grease like a manual wind? Also what kind of grease does one recommend for the bridle and also how much to apply? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Karim

[Odyseus]

I use 8200 breaking grease on the barrel walls (in two places) and then 8141 on the spring and barrel floor

Edited March 18, 2014 by Odyseus

[SeikoWatch]

On a mainspring you should use OIL not grease :) you should use some grease on some point but never in a mainspring barrel .

[Geo]

We seem to have a bit of a contradiction here. I thought that breaking grease was required to get the correct amount of slippage. Clarification required for auld apprentices like me.

[Odyseus]

You use braking grease on the barrel walls if mainspring has a bridle!

 

- http://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/two-mainspring-questions-one-about-inserting-mainspring-barrel-one-about-lubrication-703959.html

[Odyseus]

We seem to have a bit of a contradiction here. I thought that breaking grease was required to get the correct amount of slippage. Clarification required for auld apprentices like me.

 

+1 Exactly

[Karimn51]

Thank you Odyseus for the answer I have been looking for a long time. And thanks to seiko watch and Geo also. Problem solved. Yeah!

[SeikoWatch]

In that case, if the problem is solved, nice..

[clockboy]

I am in the process of servicing a ETA 2671 that has been sitting in a drawer for over twenty years. The oscillating bearing was faulty and so I changed.

However the mainspring is what I call sett and therefore needs changing. My question is what lubricant should I use for the inside of the barrel.

Edited July 19, 2014 by clockboy

[Mark]

Moebius 8217 is braking grease for the barrel walls :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[clockboy]

Thanks, However I will have to purchase some.

[bobm12]

Would 8200 work the same? Thank you in advance for the clarification (that's the one in my **BLEEP**nal at this point -- similar question, different watch !! )

Edited July 19, 2014 by bobm12

[clockboy]

Hope this works have found this Moebius oil lubrication chart.

 

 

moebiuslubricatingchart.pdf

[bobm12]

Saved and question clarified by chart, i.e. barrel and spring use different oils. Thank you.

[anilv]

Barrels will take any amount of abuse and still work.. I seen watches with what looks like wd-40 in the barrels and they still work fine.

 

The idea of using the correct grease is it manages winding of the watch and sets the point at which the mainspring 'slips' to avoid overwinding.

 

Normal oil is too slippery and will allow the mainspring to 'slip' too early.. resulting in to the spring not being watch fully and power reserve suffers.

 

No oil will result in the mainspring not releasing.. resulting in unnecessary stress on the automatic winding mechanism.

 

hope this gives you a better understanding of mainspring oiling.

 

Anil

[bobm12]

Hi anilv,

 

Thank you for the explanation.

 

Which arises the following questions:

 

If I'm full servicing a watch, let's say, one of those vintage Seiko 5, would it be OK not to open/service the barrel (and spring) in order not to disturb the original lube?

 

or maybe because this watch/lube is too old (or another reason I can't think of), would it be better to just go ahead and do the whole barrel thing?

 

(I'm trying to find best practices/recommendations for a like now restoration here)

 

I understand Seiko uses a special synthetic lube in those barrels (S-4). It looks like some black stuff/dirt which is the color of molybdenum disulfide, the stuff they put in it). The reason for the question is two fold:

 

one because this grease doesn't go nicely. When pre-cleaning everything turns black and dirty (cotton swabs, rodico, etc) then it goes in the cleaning machine and the fluids get dirty too! (the cost per part during the cleaning process is high)

 

two, the way both halves of the drum seal makes it prone to ever slightly bend the parts when taking it apart or forfeit the original tightness from the factory once the halves are disassembled. (wobbly or out of shape/seal is "broken")

 

I'd love to hear thoughts about this issue. Also if I should, once the drum is disassembled (as I've done with previous watches) should I coat the spring with Moebius 8200 regardless of having Moebius 8217 covering the drum walls ( or in the case of Seiko, S-4)?

 

Robert

[clockboy]

My advise for what its worth is always always open the barrel to have at least a look.  I learned the hard way once, serviced a watch that was running but poorly. So I did not touch the barrel after the service it still would not run for more that 5 hrs. When I did take the barrel apart the spring was broken. Don,t ask me how it was winding up and running as it is a mystery but since then I always inspect the spring to check for damage and to see if the spring is sett. Also the barrel wall on a automatic if damaged can cause issues.

Edited July 22, 2014 by clockboy

[Mark]

My advise for what its worth is always always open the barrel to have at least a look. I learned the hard way once, serviced a watch that was running but poorly. So I did not touch the barrel after the service it still would not run for more that 5 hrs. When I did take the barrel apart the spring was broken. Don,t ask me how it was winding up and running as it is a mystery but since then I always inspect the spring to check for damage and to see if the spring is sett. Also the barrel wall on a automatic if damaged can cause issues.

My first teacher during my apprenticeship never removed the mainspring when servicing (unless it was broken). Over the following years I found this to be bad practice and I always open the barrel and remove the mainspring prior to service. I have found many broken or almost broken mainspring hooks as a result and I suspect this has reduced the amount of return jobs significantly. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobm12]

Thank you guys, that's good advise!

[anilv]

Dear Bob,

 

The manufacturer's recommendation is to replace the barrel complete. Having said that, buying a 20dollar part (+shipping in my case) for a 20 dollar watch is not economically sound unless you're going for a rebuild of a watch which has high value (chrono, vintage diver). Some Swiss high-beat movements used sealed mainsprings, in these cases since the value of the watch may be higher and to achieve the accuracy it was designed for it is worth spending the money on a new barrel/spring.

 

 

In most of the cases with the Seiko barrels/springs, I have found that that the lubricant has deteriorated to the extent that it serves no purpose and may even hinder the correct function of the watch.

 

I agree with you that the barrel cover is flimsy. It gets its strength through the rigidity offered by the large lip around its circumference, rather than other watches where the cover itself is quite thick. To avoid distorting the cover, pry it up just a little bit and work your way around. Don't try to get it off in one go.

 

One reason that i usually open the barrels on these Seikos is that they use one bridge for both train and barrel. If you suspect that the mainspring is giving problems then you have to remove everything from the balance onwards. Unlike in most Swiss watches where the barrel can be removed without disturbing the other stuff.

 

To avoid getting all that black stuff all over your desk, open the barrel and rinse it in some other fluid.. thinner or even WD-40 to get the worst of it off. I usually soak it for a few minutes in thinner.. (beware of flames, no smoking etc...)

 

 

Anil

[bobm12]

Thank you Anil, that's good advice! I'll definitely use some of the fluids you suggest for a good pre clean since they are cheaper and readily available. And, no, I quit smoking a long time ago so there is no problem there, thanks you.

 

By the way,  would gas/gasoline/petrol (different names for the same thing) be suitable too? Do those regular solvents can be used on other watch parts for pre cleaning?...also in the ultrasonic machine (always for pre cleaning)?

 

Sorry for the many questions but that's the price I pay for learning at a risk of being too much!

 

Robert

[anilv]

Dear Bob,

 

I wouldn't use anything flammable in the ultrasonic as it generates some heat.

 

Apart from that use the same caution as you would handling thinner.. don't breath the fumes, dispose properly.

 

On using them for other parts, if they're steel then its ok. But if the parts have shellac then these fluids will melt the shellac.

 

Specifically the pallet fork and balance wheel, the pallet jewels are held in by shellac and if you use thinners/petrol the shellac will soften and the jewels may get loose, and you have to reset them. Likewise the roller jewel (that wot drives the pallet fork) on the balance is usually held in place with shellac as well.

 

Naphta (lighter fluid) is quite cheap and does not affect shellac, if the watch is unusually dirty I would soak the whole movement in it, agitating it slowly.

 

 

Dials and datewheels are not cleanable with fluids..

 

Anil

[bobm12]

Thank you Anil, I will probably use lighter fluid for most everything. I happen to have a couple of bottles around. I will not use the ultrasonic though, I was thinking more on the line of cotton swabs on the big parts and the agitation as you described for smaller ones.

 

The balance wheel and pallet fork I usually clean normally and by themselves. I rather spend a little more cleaner on those than risk damaging them, the expense is minimal.

 

I'm glad you told me about the date wheels! Just in time my friend!

 

Robert

[canthus]

I am servicing my vintage Omega Seamaster (cal 552) and will be fitting a new mainspring. 

I will be buying a NOS Omega original which is likely to be many years old (my watch dates back to 1966/7). 

Should I remove it from the holder and clean/relube before fitting or can I just put it into the cleaned barrel with braking grease having applied oil to barrel bottom before fitting and apply oil to spring top after fitting? 

I do not have a winding tool so will have to do all by hand and would like to avoid removal from holder if possible. 

Any advice will be much appreciated.

[bobm12]

Hi canthus,

 

Considering the NOS barrel may be so old, chances are greases might not be in good shape so I would service the part before using it. I haven't had this problem so far so I wouldn't be able to talk from experience. Maybe another member could make a better statement than me.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob