NH35 balance not moving

[JasperM 1]

Dear,

 

I regulated an NH35 movement. I got it perfect. No beat error and -2/+2 seconds. Amplitude was high and healthy. After a few minutes it stopped ticking. After moving it a bit it started but the amplitude was below 130 and the timegrapher hardly got a reading. Now it doesnt even move.

I removed the balance complete and checked that the pallet fork has power (see video). It does have power

I reinstalled the balance complete and checked if the hairspring moves freely (see video). It does

I uploaded some pictures so you can check the hairspring.

I have also checked the jewel and it seems to be ok.

 

Do you guys have any advice? As you can see I'm very much a novice and an amateur but thank you for your time.

 

Jasper

 

[JohnC 56]

I think you should attempt to flatten the hairspring, as @mikepilk suggests. Removing these hairsprings are not fun, and there is a considerable risk of damaging the hairspring either in removal or reinstallation. If you can lay the balance complete on its back, you may be able to flatten it out by grabbing at the bend and then gently lifting where it curves up (down when the balance is upside-down).

[JohnR725 1,355]

4 hours ago, JasperM said:

I have taken pictures off the hairspring and I do see that it takes a huge curve up. I think this might be the issue. Does that mean the spring is bent? Did I install the balance perhaps incorrectly? Can this be corrected?

This makes for a good learning exercise. Especially since you're going to replace the movement anyway you have nothing to lose here if you try to fix the problem. The reason you want to learn how to fix the problem rather than replace it is this is unfortunately all too common of a problem for all of us and you can't always replace the balance wheel with hairspring it may not be available. This means an extremely important skill to learn is what does the hairspring look like in the watch and if it doesn't look right how would you fix the problem? Ideally when learning how to work on hairsprings you should have scrap ones that you don't care about to practice bending seeing what happened seeing how easy it is to bend etc. .

I'm attaching a bunch of images some of them are yours enhanced slightly.

I was going to object to something last night but I just let it slide. While it is nice to have all those pictures of the balance wheel out of the watch so we can see that they hairspring looked pretty good there's a problem. The problem is the problem is only a problem typically in the watch. This is where pictures of balance wheels out of the watch like the one that I have reattached makes things look really good. What were missing was a really good picture aimed straight  down so we could see if they hairspring is centered in the watch and of course all important is Is the hairspring flat. Learning if they hairspring is flat takes a lot of time. The problem is if the hairspring touches the balance arms you lose heck of a lot of energy.

This watch uses the etachron system for the regulator and stud. For the factory it makes it really easy to get things adjusted. But should you have to remove the balance wheel its a problem. Which is why typically wouldn't remove the balance wheel from the bridge even for cleaning. So basically this is a good and bad thing. What you want to do is look at the image then open up the regulator to its maximum open. This is so the hairspring is not caught up there to make it easier to figure out where the bend is near the stud or at the stud. As this is the probably the most common place where you going to bend the hairspring. Not that you can't get creative like one of the images up above and do other bad things.

The first step is figure out what you're doing? This means you need to stare at the balance wheel and hairspring see if you can figure out where it's bent. I have an image where it looks like it's twisted. Someone above has an image a little farther down of where they think it is. They also show where they think you should push to fix the problem I would not do that. The band is usually in a specific place you want to fix that place.

I'm attaching some images out of a book it will give you some ideas for how to fix the problem. Then ideally when working on hairsprings you need special Tweezers that you need to hide and not used for anything other than hairspring work. They have nice narrow tips to get down to where you need to be.

 

 

[JohnR725 1,355]

Notice how when you push on the balance wheel it comes to a stop really fast? Look inside ways and make sure they hairspring is flat and not touching the arms of the balance wheel or the bridge. Then when you are regulating how hard did you push down on the things you are moving? Like if you loosen the balance bridge screw a little bit will it run?

[JasperM 1]

Dear JohnR725

 

Thank you for your reply. No it will not run anymore. Even when loosening the balance bridge.

 

I have taken pictures off the hairspring and I do see that it takes a huge curve up. I think this might be the issue. Does that mean the spring is bent? Did I install the balance perhaps incorrectly? Can this be corrected?

 

Thanks so much.

 

[JasperM 1]

Just wanted to follow up. Hairspring is def bent. Will have to order a new movement. Thanks for the reply.

[mikepilk 149]

Replacement balances are quite cheap for these movements.

Looks like there may be a bend at the red circle.

I'm not sure you can take the hairspring off these, but you could try and correct it in situ : hold the spring with tweezers at the red circle, and push down at the blue arrow. You need good magnification and steady hands !

If there's a twist, it's a bit more difficult. A close-up picture from above the red circle would show that.

Edited January 18 by mikepilk

[jdm 2,220]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Replacement balances are quite cheap for these movements.

Only the Chinese ones are cheap, but do not have a good reputation based from the few people here that used them.
An original Seiko balance complete is maybe 5USD less that a new SII mov.t, which makes buying the mov.t complete the most logical choice.

Last time this was discussed was on another occasion of an owner damaging the hairspring.

 

[jdm 2,220]

Other's answers are perfectly right when it comes to trying oneself to repair an hairspring after having somehow damaged it. I'll be blunt, for a total beginner chances of bringing it to a better state are very low -- ask me how do I know.
While at it look at the section circled in yellow too.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that an hairspring bent like this does not stop a Seiko mov.t, especially not all of a sudden without apparent external event.
So also consider and investigate another cause, e.g. a piece of debris (a minuscule piece of scalp skin is plenty enough) went in between gears, etc.

[mikepilk 149]

29 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

 

 

 

Interesting stuff @JohnR725 I haven't before seen instructions on working on a hairspring still in the balance. Which book is this in ?

[JasperM 1]

Dear Mikepilk, jdm and John(s),

 

Thank you so much for these elaborate responses. You guys are correct where exactly the hairspring is bent. Seeing that replacing is not an option I have tried to fix it still attached to the balance cock. During this the balance detached from the balance cock. Now I see that where the regulator pin for the beat error adjustment is, the spring wire is almost vertical. I must have hit it when I adjusted the movement. I'm suprised that it is that way since I didn't know I hit it. This proves how much of a novice I am. 

Still I have tried to flatten it following JohnR725's advice. This has worked so much better than expected. It's almost back to normal. However I am unable currently to reattach the regulator pin to the balance cock. I am looking for documentation on how but currently can't find any.

 

Again thanks so much for the help this is a huge learning experience (and curve). I didn't expect so many time consuming an nice responses.

 

Jasper 

Edited January 18 by JasperM

[jdm 2,220]

1 hour ago, JasperM said:

However I am unable currently to reattach the regulator pin to the balance cock. I am looking for documentation on how but currently can't find any.

I think you mean the end stud, not the regulator pin.
The documentation, which usually is copiously posted in each and every Seiko topic has few steps and pictures about that. In summary:

• Install balance temporarily
• Hairspring on the outside of regulator
• Use sturdy tweezers to press end stud into moveable arm. It will distinctly click when it's in place.
• Remove balance, move the two arms to be well distanced.
• Fit hairsping in regulator slot.
• Reset arms to a normal position, refit balance.

[JasperM 1]

Thank you jdm. I will try this tomorrow and update!

[JohnR725 1,355]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

 I haven't before seen instructions on working on a hairspring still in the balance. Which book is this in ?

I'm attaching an image from the book. You can Google title you can find that it's on Amazon and it seems to come in a variety of versions? It looks like the link below the hard cover is what you definitely want at that bargain price. Even the paperback seems pricey but it does have a really nice section on fixing up hairsprings

The book I have is 260 pages so the link is correct sort of. If you go down the page notices a reference to another book same title same author reproduction of the 1954 edition. Notice it's much cheaper and it has way more pages?

The last time I remember somebody trying to purchase this book whatever edition they ended up with was missing they hairspring section? Which is always troubling if you recommend a book and it comes in too many versions which makes for confusion.

https://www.amazon.com/Bench-Practices-Watch-Clockmakers-Henry/dp/096562191X

[mikepilk 149]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm attaching an image from the book. You can Google title you can find that it's on Amazon and it seems to come in a variety of versions? It looks like the link below the hard cover is what you definitely want at that bargain price. Even the paperback seems pricey but it does have a really nice section on fixing up hairsprings

The book I have is 260 pages so the link is correct sort of. If you go down the page notices a reference to another book same title same author reproduction of the 1954 edition. Notice it's much cheaper and it has way more pages?

The last time I remember somebody trying to purchae this book whatever edition they ended up with was missing they hairspring section? Which is always troubling if you recommend a book and it comes in too many versions which makes for confusion.

https://www.amazon.com/Bench-Practices-Watch-Clockmakers-Henry/dp/096562191X

 

Thanks @JohnR725, I'll try to find a copy. I do have Fried's 'The Watch Repairer's Manual', which is my standard reference.

[MechanicMike 157]

6 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Fried's 'The Watch Repairer's Manual', which is my standard reference.

one of mine too. great reference.

[JasperM 1]

Hi guys,

 

I was able to reinstall press the stud into the moveable arm. Which was great practice. However the hairpspring is beyond saving now. Thanks again for all the help!

 

Jasper

[Nucejoe 1,419]

How about a side and top view of the coil, let,s see what you call beyound repair,  though you will get ten opposing feedbacks.

The one shown above is easily sortable.

[jdm 2,220]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

How about a side and top view of the coil, let,s see what you call beyound repair,  though you will get ten opposing feedbacks.

If an hairspring can be repaired, and many other watchemaking jobs, is largely subjective, depending on the skills of the person doing it. 

I think that it doesn't help to make assumptions going beyond the common sense, if a person has not been taught, doesn't have the right tools and experience, it is simply unlikely to be able to correct even a minor hairspring defects.

What happens is that without the guidance in person by a good mentor, a series of mistakes quickly sums up and one must give up. 

[JasperM 1]

JDM is completely right. But honestly I think the hairspring would be a tall order even for an experienced watchmaker now... I'll be taking pictures today. Honestly to me this is really the hardest part of the whole watchmaker thing. Hairsprings are so delicate and my hands don't seem to be steady enough yet, especially my left hand. And as jdm said, I just learn from Mark's course. I wish I could learn this in person.

 

Thanks!

[JasperM 1]

Dear all,

 

I was able to attach a different hairspring which I was able to get semi straight. However the amplitude is just awful. Please find below pictures and two videos. Could you please advise?

 

Thank you!!

 

 

[jdm 2,220]

Quote

I was able to attach a different hairspring which I was able to get semi straight. However the amplitude is just awful.

To get acceptable amplitude on Seiko all parts (hairspring is not the only one) must be in very good shape. Unfortunately that is difficult to obtain for a beginner, you are not the first having this same identical problem. That being said the most likely cause is the hairspring rubbing somewhere. Because with the hairspring even just slightly distorted on the horizonal plane, as soon it gets compressed that kink will rise and touch under the cock, or on the wheel rims.

[mikepilk 149]

As @jdm says, it looks like it is rubbing on the balance arm - possibly near the red arrow.

The spring is sloping down from the stud to the regulator, and It looks like there is a kink just to the right of the regulator.

Trying to fix that is not easy for the beginner (by "not easy" , I mean VERY difficult for the beginner).  But if you are getting a new movement or balance, use it to practice on.

Fiddling with hairsprings is a fine art, which many (probably most) never become competent at. I've practiced and can sort out simple defects, but they still give me nightmares - especially trying to sort out overcoils 

 

 

[mikepilk 149]

Here's pic of a scrap 7S26 movement I have, to show you the spring from the stud to the regulator.

 

 

 

[JasperM 1]

Again thank you all very much for taking time out of your day to give me all this information for free. I'm not used to this. This is helping me so much!

 

Jasper

[JohnR725 1,355]

7 hours ago, JasperM said:

I was able to attach a different hairspring which I was able to get semi straight. However the amplitude is just awful. Please find below pictures and two videos. Could you please advise?

A question that comes up all too often is problems related to hairsprings. Seems like a simple solution the hairspring is removable they can be swapped. But you're going to end up with timing issues each hairspring comes with its balance wheel it's why they're not sold a separate components they come together.

I'm attaching a PDF it's not for your watch I want you to go to the very last page. The very bottom of the last page look at how they hairspring looks? Compare that with your hairspring they don't quite look the same. I don't think your hair Springs been destroyed I think it can be fixed but it can't be fixed if you don't grasp what it's supposed to look like. Then even if you grasp what it's supposed to look like hairspring work requires a lot of time to learn. Like everything else in watch repair it requires a heck of a lot of practice. You really should be practicing bending hairsprings every single day preferably not in a watch something disposable. Look on eBay look for cheap movements  Something a don't care about something to practice with because without the practice trying to practice as you go on the watches are working on is not a recipe for success.

The reason for the PDF is the last page talks about the etachron system which adds complications perhaps.

So the problem is at least for me it's hard to tell where the problem is with your hairspring other than the problem is very visible.  This is because it could be a bend of the hairspring or if the etachron  stud for instance has been rotated and you're not quite the right place that is not be a problem also. Or more likely you have both problems.

Seiko 7S26C_36C.pdf