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Zenith 411 (same as 410) balance part number


Wallace

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Hello, I have an old zenith 411 which is basically a 410 without moon phase only used by Concord in the impresario as far as I can tell. The reason I need it is broke the balance pivot. I am finally getting to repair it and I found some balances but there’s so many ancillary part numbers and I cannot find a sheet to pinpoint exactly which one to purchase. The balance number on all the technical sheets I have is 721 and if you go to cousins they have 721 balance completes available but they have different variations and I’m unsure which one to order. Any help from anyone out there who could help me refine which one. I’m either going to buy a balance complete with cock or balance with hairspring. Some other information on the watch.

it has 100 teeth on the fourth wheel (400z series is different)

21 teeth on escapement (400z series is different)

31 jewels (420 is 35)

36,000 vph 

from around late 1990s

this is all the information I can think of off the top of my head but if you need anything else let me know.

Thank you 

 

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Thanks but it’s not omega it’s made by zenith it’s a zenith El primero  chronometer chronograph. It’s actually very similar to the zenith movement they put in the Daytonas back in the late 90s except Rolex put in their own balance and rolled back the vibrations to 28 800. I think part of the problem is it seems zenith lists all their balances as 721 for the part number, even some very old ones. I am working on a line to get one through Blake at Scotch watch and I’m hoping he has it because I’m not sure if any of the ones cousins have will fit mine. Either way I was hoping someone would have a parts list to find the part numbers because you can’t find much on the Internet. 

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2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Ihave attached the following documents on the Zenith, There seems to be nothing specific on the 411 as the base caliber is the 400/410.  hope they are of some use to you in you endeavour     cheers

Zenith 400, 405, 410, 420, 400Z, 405Z, 410Z, 420Z.pdf 1.89 MB · 1 download Zenith 410 (1).pdf 858.75 kB · 1 download Zenith 410 El Primero.pdf 6.77 MB · 1 download 1984529516_Zenith400(2).pdf 41.86 MB · 1 download

Thank you I had the first couple documents but that last one gives me so much information on the servicing of the movement. 
 

I think I found a balance with hairspring from Blake at scotch watch. The collet is a little different but it has the same amount of coils and the same termination area as far as I can tell so I think I’m going to pull the trigger on that and hope for the best. it is out of a 400 series and I think they’re all pretty much the same with minor differences such as a different collet. I believe they didn’t change the pallet except on the new models so I think I’ll be OK with the impulse on this balance. I tried removing my hair spring  but the collet is a three star very thin type and I ended up with some damage so I don’t want to  have to remove hair spring on one of these again, it’s not a standard brass ring and very fiddilly. Thank you for your help and if you know of some other resources for parts let me know I’m waiting for a picture of the impulse side of the balance before I pull the trigger.

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I noticed that the parts list I have for the 410 of course does not have the balance wheel. Refers you to the base calibers 3019 PHF. Then the balance wheel is number 721 but? One of the problems with the Swiss numbering system is 721 is a balance wheel. But that part number does not tell us which balance wheel. For instance I'm looking at  AS 1940 Its balance wheel is 721. So basically any older tech sheet for just about any watch is going to Have the balance wheel 721. Which is why you needed additional numbers like the company name and the model number. Later the watch companies got smart and they have unique numbers.

To give you an example of the 721 problem I went the best fit online and just looking for Zenith parts a scroll down to the balance wheels which of course are 721 a snipped out a section just see you can see all the balance wheels are 721.we do get the best fit part number for your balance wheel plus perhaps a factory number.  The numbers that were interested in our ZEN 3019 PHC    721/1933    721/ZEN 3019. The first is the base caliber the second is the best fit number. The third is the factory number.

Then I'm attaching another image the interchangeability list which is interesting because basically there's almost none. But I'm guessing that's because all the variations in the watch basically still use this as the base caliber. As opposed to listing all or parts separately. Not sure if that makes any sense but at least to get a best fit number. Which is helpful for the US material houses where they might actually have one.

 Although knowing the number now is one material house it looks like you can scratch off the list and the balance wheel was pricey if they did have it.

Another option I haven't even looked for that is what about replacing the balance staff that would be considerably cheaper then the balance wheel itself?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_410

Zenith balance wheel 721.JPG

Zenith balance wheel interchangeability.JPG

Zenith out of stock.JPG

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Thanks John. Yeah I noticed how 721 seemed to just reference the fact it was a balance and that it was the universal number that just referred to balance part on a movement in general. So basically no matter the movement the balance would be listed at 721 like you said but trying to find the additional reference numbers for the part was impossible. Thank you for helping me out with this and I got really lucky with someone I trusted having the part because if I had to start shopping other sources I had no numbers. I was going to do the balance staff but they do not use a standard Collet but it’s more of a collapsed piece of thin metal and a three star pattern so when I tried to remove it I ended up damaging the hairspring a little at the attachment to the collet. It was hard because when using my Collet tools it was not possible to have any large surface adjacent from each other to lift up on. I have played around with repairing hair Springs but I really want this watch to be tiptop so I ruled it out. Not to mention I’ve never repaired a bend that close to the Collet. Fortunate for me I was able to source a balance complete for a zenith 400 series from Blake at Scotchwatch. Like you said it was pricey but it was better than the alternative of sending it off to have the service just to get the part. Happy to say I got it back together and it’s running with about a five to six second variation in positional error, Not quite chronometer spec but I’m OK with it.

 

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