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First go with a Timex automatic


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Hi all,

Finally gathered the courage to try a Timex! 
 

I found this automatic dirt cheap (pic’s attached) but with a nice dial so why not give it a go.
 

Found that the h/s spring was quite bent, probably due to someone being careless with the timing setting. Got that sorted decently without any disassembly and now the wheel spins freely and h/s looks ok. 
 

but it doesn’t start up and when turning the crown I hear a distinct click after a few turns that makes me think there’s something wrong with the main spring. Are these movements equipped with a similar slipping m/s as regular automatics? The sound I hear makes me think more along the lines of a broken spring in a manual.

I understand we have some devoted Timex guys on the forum and would appreciate any hints on how to proceed. 
 

/bsoderling

 

 

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Next steps...

Having removed the rotor and trying to get some tension in the m/s via the crown, I find the same thing as mentioned previously. After just half a turn or so and with no tension or even movement in the m/s, there's "clicking" sound. 

To me it appears as the m/s doesn't catch onto the m/s arbor as it should...

These m/s barrel assy's appear to be not very service intended?

Can a replacement be found these days or am I facing a lost cause here..?

 

 

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If the m/s is not broken, most likely it can be salvaged. If it is not catching on the winding arbor because the final loop (or first depending on how you look at it) is too loose, it can be reshaped with a pair of round nosed pliers. I think this type of damage is caused by forcing the m/s onto a winder with too large an arbor.

I was planning on servicing a Timex automatic with a m/s slippage problem last night but my arm hurts too much from the Covid-19 vaccine jab that I received in the morning. Maybe I'll try again tonight and get some photos of the m/s.

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9 hours ago, bsoderling said:

Next steps...

Having removed the rotor and trying to get some tension in the m/s via the crown, I find the same thing as mentioned previously. After just half a turn or so and with no tension or even movement in the m/s, there's "clicking" sound. 

To me it appears as the m/s doesn't catch onto the m/s arbor as it should...

These m/s barrel assy's appear to be not very service intended?

Can a replacement be found these days or am I facing a lost cause here..?

 

 

Check if any teeth are worn on items 452 & 450.

Also, the main spring could be broken, or bent / disconnected from the arbour, or simply lubricated by someone previously by mistake and now it slips too soon. Autopsy is required.

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10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

If the m/s is not broken, most likely it can be salvaged. If it is not catching on the winding arbor because the final loop (or first depending on how you look at it) is too loose, it can be reshaped with a pair of round nosed pliers. I think this type of damage is caused by forcing the m/s onto a winder with too large an arbor.

So the arbor end of these m/s are similar to the regular swiss designs? If that's the case there should be a fair chance to close it.

8 hours ago, Poljot said:

Also, the main spring could be broken, or bent / disconnected from the arbour, or simply lubricated by someone previously by mistake and now it slips too soon. Autopsy is required.

Very true! I was hoping to be able to follow the service manual and not dig deeper into disassembly. It's a bit strange that the slipping operation can be maintained even after cleaning the entire assembly with the spring and barrel in place while cleaning. I have little experience from regular automatics but notice that the lubrication of barrel walls on these is a repeated topic for discussion on the forum and involving special breaking grease. But somehow these Timex guys managed to work around that...

Thanks for all the good feedback so far, I will feedback my further experiences here. 

And good luck with that vaccinated arm, you should be good and immune soon. I'm afraid I will have to wait quite a while for my shot as I'm a youngster at 65 😄 and will have to wait until maybe april as things are developing here in Sweden.

 

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1 hour ago, bsoderling said:

So the arbor end of these m/s are similar to the regular swiss designs? If that's the case there should be a fair chance to close it.

Very true! I was hoping to be able to follow the service manual and not dig deeper into disassembly. It's a bit strange that the slipping operation can be maintained even after cleaning the entire assembly with the spring and barrel in place while cleaning. I have little experience from regular automatics but notice that the lubrication of barrel walls on these is a repeated topic for discussion on the forum and involving special breaking grease. But somehow these Timex guys managed to work around that...

Thanks for all the good feedback so far, I will feedback my further experiences here. 

And good luck with that vaccinated arm, you should be good and immune soon. I'm afraid I will have to wait quite a while for my shot as I'm a youngster at 65 😄 and will have to wait until maybe april as things are developing here in Sweden.

 

Unless you wind the watch, i suppose "timex cleaning" method would not remove braking grease from the barrel's inside wall. Do not forget that preferred service method for Timex watches was to replace the entire movement with Timex serviced movement.

You can see how 40-50 year old mainspring looks and fits around the arbour in Timex watch. Not very tight fit. And take a look at the wear and tear 🙂

 

And, your "vaccination" comment was in error directed to me.. I say No, Thank You!

TMS - Copy.PNG

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Interesting pic’s ! Those arbor teeth have carried a lot of load over the years.

no offence intended regarding the vaccination. Your choise obviously.

my well wishes towards HectorLooi remains...

 

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Since you guys have been so helpful, I just keep going...

I obviously have to gett the barrel out and wonder if there’s any shortcut without full disassembly? 
Maybe I can turn the copper washer and remove parts on the opposite side (pic attached) and ease the barrel out?

There is nothing in the manuals towards barrel removal only, so maybe that’s not possible?
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, bsoderling said:

no offence intended regarding the vaccination. Your choise obviously.

No offense taken. I work in the healthcare sector and all healthcare professionals in my country were offered priority to receive free Covid-19 vaccinations.

I recovered sufficiently to do a teardown and cleaning of my Timex. It is a M109 movement. I discovered the reason for the loss of power in this watch. The teeth of the winding ratchet assembly are worn off to the point that it slips when the spring is wound to a certain tension. 

I will remove the winding ratchet tomorrow and examine it under my microscope to see if I can do anything to the worn teeth. I wonder if there are any NOS replacement for this part.

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Looks like you posted a picture of the part I mentioned earlier and missed to upload the picture from...🙂

Maybe it's possible to sharpen the part that's supposed to catch onto the wheel to get a better hold when winding?

Any thoughts about my idea to remove the copper washer and wheel to possibly lift the barrel and ease it out sideways?

 

 

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50 minutes ago, bsoderling said:

Any thoughts about my idea to remove the copper washer and wheel to possibly lift the barrel and ease it out sideways?

Removing the washer is easy. Use a sharp, pointed instrument to gently lift the corner of the washer that is in the slot, then using a tweezer in your other hand to engage one of the cutout notches and rotate it 90° till it unlocks and it will pop off.

Putting it back is just the reverse. But a whole lot trickier. 

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One other thing to check. It is possible to fit the plate that holds the oscillating weight two different ways. In other words, the plate is not symmetrical.

If you screw it on in the wrong position, then the pawls will be in the wrong position and the weight will not work correctly. I have done this a couple of times, however in my case the weight wouldn't turn correctly either when the movement was cased. If the case has more space though, then it might be possible to case the movement and still have the plate on back to front.

Also check that the spring for the pawls is correctly fitted and the pawls turn the winder when you engage them manually. If not, then you will need to swap parts from a donor.

 

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Also there is a manual available on line which explains how it all fits together much better than I have.
I've attached it here in case you do not already have it. It also details where to oil.


 

From memory, the pawls that drive the winding wheel should sit more like this picture. 

109.pdf

Edited by AndyHull
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7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I discovered the reason for the loss of power in this watch. The teeth of the winding ratchet assembly are worn off to the point that it slips when the spring is wound to a certain tension

Are you sure this is the cause?

image.png.acde71f4baa414cb5ba87b06de8c238a.png


I think if it looses power it is more likely to be the click spring. If this is badly worn, it will release or slip when the power in the mainspring increases.
Does it manually wind without slipping? If not, the click is worn.

Edited by AndyHull
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Silly old me put the winding ratchet upside down. I checked it with my 12x loupe and the teeth look worn but still acceptable (like the choppers of many of my older patients).

I flipped it around and it seems ok now. I didn't take note of the orientation of the wheel when removing it. But when I examined it, I noted that one side had a groove where the rim of the brass washer sits, so I assumed that it must have been caused by wear. So it placed that side facing up. But now when I think about it, it can't be caused by wear because there is no movement between the wheel and the washer. I wonder why Timex put the groove there!

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well isn't it interesting to see so much discussion on the watches that so many like to label as "throw away" .

😜

Here is my latest Timex repair I began on an M25 movement to be used to build a 1970 Marlin with many NOS parts. What I did not notice until putting on the date ring is that two of the four posts were missing. That was a first for me.  So I borrowed two from  a M32.  Notice the one brass colored on in the bottom left? And there she is all happy and shiny new!

 

 

 

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I throw nothing away as my drawer can testify, If a watch is broken then fix it unless its totally uneconomical to do so and then is in to the spare box for parts. If it your own and time matters not always have a go.

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Back again with an update (and new questions...🙂 )

I couldn't find a way to get the m/s barrel out without further disassembly so I did that. 

And indeed...the m/s was ok as such but very loose on the arbor, so I squeezed that tighter and hope it will stay hooked. 

After a bit of cleaning I'm now tryin to get the thing back together again. And that's obviously a quite different process compared to your regular Swiss stuff. Before trying to assemble, I decided to remove the balance as described in the manual by removing the stud and easing the h/s out from the timing slot. No problem so far. 

I managed to get all the wheels correctly in place and the plate screwed back on top. 

But...the process described in the manual to get the balance back by unscrewing the v-shaped "cap" that controls the axial play to get enough space to ease in the balance wheel from the side doesn't work for me. As you can hopefully see in the attached pic the "setting ring "  around the v-shape protrudes quite far into this space and I can't get the balance in between. I tried to tilt the balance to get one side into the v-shape first but that's not working either. 

Any hints from the Timex wizards would be appreciated!

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Hi  on the other side of the balance there is a brass screw which contains the "V conic bearing"  if you back off this screw you should have enough room to drop the balance in then do up the screw with just enough tension to hold it then fit the balance spring and wedge then re adjust the balance end shake.

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I'm no Timex wizard but I have done enough of them to understand your suffering. 

I usually remove the v conic screw completely, tilt the balance and get the pivot into the hole. The ease it through the hole as far as it can go, then there should be enough space to get the other pivot into the v conic cup. Remember to oil the cup first.

Then put a drop of oil into the cup of the brass screw and turn it down slowly over the other pivot. Now adjust the endshake until you have minimal sideshake. Avoid over tightening it as the pivot can be damaged.

Getting the hairspring into the hole of the regulator arm and stud hole is another adventure. I'll let you figure it out first...

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Thanks! 
I did unscrew the brass screw quite a bit. But removing it completely should get me as much space as is possible. And then I’ll have to practise more on the balance tilting bit. It sounds like it’s important to fit the pivot going into the side with the brass screw first to not get stuck on that outer setting ring in my pic.

we’ll see...

 

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Balance resolved but not done yet...

After unscrewing the v-conic screw completely and tilting the balance enough I got it in there. And pinning the h/s wasn't half as tricky as I feared. The balance now swings nicely with a little pressure applied on the wheel train. 

But now I'm stuck on the winding mechanism. 😒 For some reason (?) there's a little axial play in the m/s arbor and the "planet wind pinion" that ends in a squarish shape that's supposed to sit in the squarish hole in  the "planet pinion ass'y"  and take the force when winding, slips back and no longer holds the planet wind part. In a regular swiss design, this connection would have been secured by the ratchet wheel screw but this is different....

If I apply a bit of pressure on the opposite side of the pinion, I can wind the m/s but as soon as the pressure goes away, the pinion slips back a bit and looses the grip in the planet part. 

I have attached a couple of pic's showing the "good" pinion position with its end flush with the two planet wheels and the "bad" position where the pinion end is lower than the surrounding planet wheels. 

I actually think this was the problem from start rather than the m/s not hooking onto the arbor. 

It somehow feels like it should be possible to shim somewhere to maintain the pinion in the good position but I can't get my head around where or how. 

 

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