Is Rust An Insoluble Problem?

[saswatch88]

10 hours ago, jdm said:

Carbs are made of an alloy of aluminum. They don't rust but form a thin layer of browning ( that's oxidation as well but of the non ferrous type), especially where they contact with fuel and other contaminants. What works on them may not work on steel and iron, and viceversa.

There are tons of videos and tutorials on what is the most effective rust remover on common objects and general mechanical parts, I am surprised electrolysis has not been mentioned, as it is extremely effective and cheap.

However when we talk about watch and clocks I don't think we can apply the same technique and products. We have an abundance of brass parts plus a variety of ones plated to different metals and finishings, which are not so common in other manufafacts. In general, ammonia based solutions are very common and effective, as well the use of tea, but then again, there is no product that is really universal.

Some people spent good money on cleaning machines an professional liquids just to find that these have completely ruined the finishing of some expensive watch parts.

Given the small size we deal with we we have the option of quickly doing a bit of mechanical action to remove the last stubborn stains, that in my experience are alway there after using chemicals. 

I have used this on steel, iron, nickel, aluminum, brass, zinc, black oxide, and anything with rust or surface rust. As far as carbs go there are steel components that do rust but this solution cleans not just the rust but everything else as well including the old gas varnish. Most watch movements are made of non ferrous metals so they can be anti-magnetic, but the stems for example are consisted of ferrous carbon steel for its tensile strength and they are much more susceptible to rust and corrosion esp. since it has the most exposure to boot. So the stems tend to rust first and then it spreads into the movement, but will usually sit only on the surface of the non ferrous parts. Typically in older waltham/elgin movements the rust will usually be contained to the (ferrous metal parts) ie the stem, keyless works, crown and ratchet wheels. but the plates and bridges will remain untainted, unless it gets heavily infiltrated then you will see a mixture of rust corrosion and surface rust. Some of the later models would use nickel alloy and black oxide steel components, Which attract rust like no tomorrow, but the alloy is so highly resistant to it you have to dissolve the screws in visson or alum, they are a nightmare when rust gets to them.

As far as other metals like in clocks that use brass and other finishes, this solution has a claim that says "safe for anything but rust" so it cant hurt to try it. And that is true! electrolyses should have been mentioned it is very easy and cheap to do and it great when you have rusted components or screws that cant be removed. 

[SPIGGOTT]

I have used Ballistol (meaning 'Ballistic Oil') and a 8000 grit wet polishing stick with the part on a hard plastic block.

Before doing this I soak the part in Naphthalene (lighter fluid) and brush with a fibreglass pen brush.  Removed most of the rust but not the staining.

final results produce a mirror finish and no signed of rust.  Also the Ballistol protects the part.

[Paul80]

Hi all.

Just started to strip my latest eBay watch and found the the hour wheel is rusted solid to the Cannon pinion which in turn is rusted solid to the minute wheel.  Bizarrely no sign of rust anywhere else.

What's the safest way to remove the rust so I can get the parts removed.

Thanks.

Paul

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

A rust removing product, with a glass fiber brush, depending how bad the parts are they should be replaced.  

[watchweasol]

Strip as far as you can and soak  the rest in Vinegar or coke for a while  if you have it as OH said a rust remover product,  If they are seized on sounds like they will be u/s and need replacing.

[KarlvonKoln]

17 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Strip as far as you can and soak  the rest in Vinegar or coke for a while  if you have it as OH said a rust remover product,  If they are seized on sounds like they will be u/s and need replacing.

I would add to this: remove any brass parts wherever possible.  I was schooled about using vinegar around brass, by a few veterans on this very forum in the recent past.  I did my own testing on old, broken watch wheels.  Using white distilled vinegar, and a third wheel from an old wrist watch, I discovered that soaking it no longer than 30 minutes is still safe - but I would not go past that.  And it's likely safer not to do it at all. I keep reading how vinegar has a cumulative effect on brass, and can weaken it.  And I know that the brass parts of watches can be very fine and delicate, not much thickness to the brass, so it wouldn't take very long to destroy them I imagine. But I think OH and other experienced folks here could recommend a safe rust remover if you need assistance there.
That said, I have not yet tested Coke on brass.  I will need to do that and record my findings.

[oldhippy]

Not sure about the Coca‑Cola of today but back in the 70's & 80's that stuff would make brass shine, the same with farmhouse cider. Just imagine what it does to one's insides. 

[KarlvonKoln]

8 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Not sure about the Coca‑Cola of today but back in the 70's & 80's that stuff would make brass shine, the same with farmhouse cider. Just imagine what it does to one's insides. 

I don't drink Coca-Cola anymore, haven't in years.  I have used it to clean my sink drains if they clog.  It works wonders for that, and it's way cheaper than the drain cleaners I could buy at the hardware store.  Takes a little longer to work sometimes, but it does work. And it's safe for plastic pipes!

[spectre6000]

If you're in the US, there is a product called Evaporust. It is safe to use with brass, and very effective. It's gentle, and even non-toxic IIRC. Can be had pretty readily at hardware stores.

[KarlvonKoln]

Thanks Spectre!  I'm going to look that up.

[Paul80]

Thanks for the replies.

Evaporust seems to only available in 5ltr bottles over here but there are 3 different formulations ranging from £18 to £55 for 5ltrs, which one should I use.

Had the parts soaking in some Rustin's Rust remover for the last 24 hours without much improvement, looks like this one might end up scrapped and the rest of the parts consigned to the parts bin.

Paul

[spectre6000]

I think I've only ever bought it by the gallon or so. I use it for a lot more than just watches though (for instance, antique woodworking tools of the sort that made @SparkyLB disappear so effectively!), so I've needed the volume. If you were local, I'd pour you off a jar. I don't know about the different formulations... Truthfully didn't know there was more than the one. Around here, it comes in a gray bottle with a maroon label, IIRC. I suggest reading the labels to start and see if that narrows it down. I had good luck calling them when I spilled the better part of a gallon all over my kitchen once and needed to know what sort of shit I was going to be in with the wife (next to none, it's non-toxic and mostly detergent). 

You'll essentially pour a little into a small glass jar that you keep around for derusting, then drop the part in and leave it for a day or so. Come back, pull it out, rinse it off in the sink, maybe hit it with an old toothbrush if it's big enough and you can maintain a good grip, and then you're off to the races. It's strong enough to get the job done, but gentle enough that you could leave a part in there as long as you needed to if you couldn't get back to it as planned or just forgot.

If this thread is still going the next time I come across a rusty part, I'll try to remember to take photos.

Edited September 21, 2021 by spectre6000

[Paul80]

Well I gave the Rustin's stuff more time and it seems to have worked, well sort of, it's all apart now, the hour wheel is fine as is the main plate, the Cannon pinion and all the steel parts of the minute (Center) wheel have been totally dissolved, still 2 out of 4 parts recovered is better than none.

Paul

[Gramham]

Hello Everyone,

A very interesting thread.  I'd like to contribute a little if I may?  I am current developing a paper entitled "Why (and How) We Clean Things" for publication next year.  I think I'll be including some of the wisdom imparted in this forum, but I would like to continue developing it so it meets the right standard for inclusion.

My visiting this thread was prompted by a decision to rehabilitate the Winding Work of an Elgin 12s Pocket watch, which in and of itself was part of me attempting to develop better Watchmaking skills in terms of physically manipulating watch parts. 

The practice Pocket Watch movement I bought has a lot of issues, and the Winding Work seemed to be in trouble and as good a place to start as any:



The thread is located here:

https://bit.ly/3RghCG4

In it, I talk about what might be the best protocol for removing the Winding Work wheels from the movement, seeing as they are quite "rusty" and a real potential existed for them to have been "rust welded" to the movement or their securing screws.

I used a solvent to "loosen" the rust between the screws and the wheels to the point where I could confidently attempt a removal, and the removal was a complete success with a minimum of damage.

Having thought about it a bit, the overall challenge we all face in this situation, as I see it, is to eventually know how to perform:

1)  Isolation:  The removal of "rusted" components from their host mechanism in the least damaging way possible
2)  Eradication:  The removal of as much "rust" as possible from the surface of the component
3)  Surfacing:  The beautification of the component via some form of surface treatment (polish or abrasion)
4)  Prevention:  The "rust proofing" of the component to prevent "rust" from recurring

Q:  Does anyone have any modifications they'd like to apply to this overall protocol?

While preparing this post, I did some (light) background research on "rust".  Here's one of the more useful resources I found:

TYPES OF RUST

Red Rust
Hydrated oxide Fe2O3•H2O (from high oxygen availability and high water availability)
The most common type of corrosion is uniform corrosion. This is where an even layer of oxidation appears across the surface of the material. When metal is exposed to high volumes of water and oxygen, the iron oxidizes with a contaminate, creating “red” rust.

Yellow Rust
Iron oxide-hydroxide FeO(OH)H2O (high moisture)
Yellow rust is present in metals that are found in large amounts of standing water. This type of rust is usually found in a solvated state, commonly found near sinks and bathtubs.

Brown Rust
Oxide Fe2O3 (high oxygen/low moisture)
Brown rust can react even with lack of moisture, compared to the others highlighted above. Unlike red rust, brown rust can form as non-uniform corrosion, appearing on specific areas of the material rather than the overall surface. The manufacturing process can usually be the result of brown rust when contaminates are found on metal surfaces.

Black Rust
Iron (II)oxide – Fe3O4 (limited oxygen)
Black rust can form when oxygen cannot reach the material, perhaps it is trapped and covered by another material resulting in a stain-like reaction. Unlike the other types of rust, black rust does not produce as quickly and is not as common which makes it easier to combat.

Source: https://bit.ly/3Aq04Ak 

PROPOSED RUST MITIGATION PROTOCOL

Stage 1:  Isolation

Various strategies were suggested to me in terms of getting my rusted components off safely, or isolating it.  One source suggested "Turpentine Spirits", another source advised me to use "a drop of WD-40".  In all cases, what the friendly advice was trying to do was identify a liquid that would penetrate the matrix formed by the rust between what had formerly been discrete components, but which had turned them into what we typically call a "rusted together mass" or "lump".  Other products that might fall into this category are specialized penetrating oils (mouse oil, 3-in-1 oil), non-specialized oils (motor oil, castor oil, coconut oil) and liquids that contain different types of acid (Coca-Cola, Vinegar).

For Stage 1, what seemed to be most advisable was the application of a liquid that not only had a chemical effect in terms of removing rust (solvent) but also assistance in the mechanical  process of detachment of the component from its host mechanism (lubrication).

Stage 2:  Eradication

With the component isolated, the next stage involved a 3-part process:  (A) Washing away whatever liquid was used in Stage 1; (B) A physical pre-treatment stage that involved removing as much rust as possible via mechanical means; and (C) An effort to "take away" as much of the remaining rust as possible by converting it to something else in place or in solution using chemicals in solution.  Acetic Acid (Vinegar) and Phosphoric Acid (Coca-Cola) are both popular over-the-counter solutions, as are specialty products like Evap-O-Rust and its analogs.

Stage 3:  Surfacing

In my case, I wanted to give the components an attractive look, considering that was how they started out when the watch was not "rusty".  Here's a photo of a similar watch with a Winding Work in better shape - probably very close to what it looked like when it left the factory:

This type of patterning on the Winding Work wheels is typically accomplished using a combination of industrial techniques and various approaches to and types of abrasives, which I am exploring elsewhere:

https://bit.ly/3RghCG4

Stage 4:  Prevention
With the components totally rehabilitated, the next challenge is to prevent the recurrence of rust.  Many strategies are applicable here, but they all boil down to developing an effective barrier between the component, air and moisture.  I am also exploring this elsewhere:

https://bit.ly/3e3gwPD

CONCLUSION

Overall, it looks like something as simple as removing a couple of pieces from the Winding Work mechanism to help them look and work better spiders out into a huge integrated challenge that draws from not a few disciplines.  For me, that's great - because I have a lot of background from other pursuits that I can apply to this domain.  For newcomers, a guide like this may save them time, money and heartache should they irretrievably damage a "rusted" part because they didn't have a map to follow.

Best,

g.
----

Edited August 27, 2022 by Gramham
Finishing & Polishing