Is Rust An Insoluble Problem?

[Chopin]

I have a calendar wheel that has some rust on the front and a dial that has some rust on the back and just very very small dots on the front as well.

How can I clean the rust off ? Would it be safe to just submerge these parts into rust remover ? Warm water and lemon juice ? Water and soap perhaps ?

I can live with the front side of the dial as I wouldn't want to ruin it any further as it has some pitting here and there.

Would submerging these parts into just some liquid solve it or do I have to use a brush or something and slowly and carefully brush the rust off ?

The calendar wheel seems to be the standard brass (or whatever it might be) with a white plastic type thing glued onto it with black numerals.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chopin

[wls1971]

If the calendar wheel is brass and plastic it is more than likely that the rust on the underside of the dial has stained the plastic  what calibre movement is it ? is replacement not possible. I would not be tempted to do anything other than to try and gently remove it with a swab with distilled water. If you can live with the dial just remove the rust from the underside no need to soak in anything and risk damaging the dial front.

Soaking dials in anything is a very bad idea there has been plenty of discussion on dial cleaning on this forum before do a search.

 

[Chopin]

It is a Baumgartner automatic. Might be 158 but not 100% certain.

I don't think I have distilled water. Any other alternative ? Rubbing alcohol ? The rust seems to be over the wheel. I think it may have had some water in it at some point as I did find a bit more rust inside the watch as well, just a little bit.

[wls1971]

Date rings are available from cousins at £5.95 so you should be able to replace that if it wont clean up rubbing alcohol is isopropyl it isn't safe on all plastic so could melt the surface of the date ring. If the rust is on the back of the dial you could gently remove it with a contact fibre bristle cleaner if you have one.

[Chopin]

I have one of those fibre glass things but it's pretty large and I think the dial feet might not allow me to do it. I will see what I can do though.

Thank you for the cousins suggestion. I didn't know that they are standardized so to speak...

[rodabod]

If it's not an expensive watch (BFG usually aren't) then I would try using a cotton bud dipped in vinegar or lemon juice / citric acid. Rub very lightly.

[Chopin]

I eventually managed to wipe most of the dirt away so thank you guys. I have one more question about this movement and maybe someone can enlighten me.

This is a baumgartner 158 with a date wheel only and I would like to know if I have some parts missing as it just feels a little empty. When I took the dial off the day wheel was moving freely around.

Does it look like any parts are missing ?

[wls1971]

It looks all there to me have a look at this walkthrough the date wheel looks like it is held in place by the dial when attached so would be rather lose when removed

http://watchguy.co.uk/service-repair-buler-baumgartner-bfg-158/

It does have some serious rust though on the date jumper which I assume you have now cleaned up 

[Chopin]

Yep I just thought of checking out that website and do a search for my movement and found that page a few minutes after posting.

I have, indeed, cleaned everything there needs to be cleaned but that rusty part got a little oxidized and corroded during the process but I'm pretty sure that it'll work as intended as it has a pretty simple thing to do.

[perfectkyo]

The watch movement and case are rusted. What rust removal products are needed?

[clockboy]

If it's really bad then a new movement will be required. Post some pics please 

[marcusj]

Tried posting this in the watch course section without joy.

 

What about electrolytic methods for removing rust? I've removed rust from tools with a bath of supermarket sodium bicarbonate solution and a car battery charger. Works a treat.

[clockboy]

A new one for me but it sounds good

[Robbie010]

I started playing with my latest project today, carefully stripping down and cleaning each piece individually, I came across some minor surface rust. I soaked the parts in degreaser and initially went at the part with peg wood to loosen the surface. I then re-cleaned them and had a go with a fibreglass pen before cleaning again and soaking in oil for 10 mins.

The results look ok under general magnification but not so great when looking closer. 

How far should one go with such surface rust and what would be the correct next step in dealing with it??

Thanks. 

[jdm]

You can do some polishing with a mild compound on a stick. 

[Robbie010]

8 minutes ago, jdm said:

You can do some polishing with a mild compound on a stick. 

Thanks.

Would a compound such as Polywatch be ok to use?

[Poljot]

25 minutes ago, Robbie010 said:

I started playing with my latest project today, carefully stripping down and cleaning each piece individually, I came across some minor surface rust. I soaked the parts in degreaser and initially went at the part with peg wood to loosen the surface. I then re-cleaned them and had a go with a fibreglass pen before cleaning again and soaking in oil for 10 mins.

The results look ok under general magnification but not so great when looking closer. 

How far should one go with such surface rust and what would be the correct next step in dealing with it??

Thanks. 

Five minutes of ultrasonic bath at +35C - ish in appropriate cleaning solution (many choices available) will make it shiny, but (there is always BUT), eventually with moisture and time rust will come back unless a new coating is applied.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Robbie010 said:

Would a compound such as Polywatch be ok to use?

No, that's for plastic crystals. Try a minuscule amount of household silverware cleaner, or the like.

[canthus]

After mechanical cleaning, US cleaning will help to dislodge loose rust particles.  The US process generates micro bubbles which will 'hydraulic off' any loose bits.  The remaining rust needs to be passivated by converting the rust to something else.  This is where cola can be useful as it contains phosphoric acid which converts rust to ferrous phosphate which is inert but tends to be dark coloured.  Another way is to soak in warm/hot diesel engine lube oil, these have a high level of corrosion inhibitors (more than petrol engine oils).  Need to soak for several hours to let the inhibitors to get to work. This should keep rust away, but only a full mechanical removal will remove it for good.  To protect for future, rub in a waxy substance as this will fill voids and may stay in place better.  Grease should not be used for corrosion prevention as most greases contain some water and once the inhibitors are 'used up', corrosion can occur under the grease film.

[saswatch88]

22 hours ago, Robbie010 said:

Thanks.

Would a compound such as Polywatch be ok to use?

I swear by this stuff, I use it to remove rust and restore old motorcycle parts, I even use it on carbs since it wont damage plastic and rubber seals. I wish I had some before and afters to show you but you just wouldnt believe it if i did. It looks like one of those fake pitch commercials that air on TV at 4am.....they actually sell a similar product on some watch material sites but i have only seen "Vaporust" which sucks compared to this....its also non toxic and non corrosive. You can actually drink this stuff. Use with ultrasonic for faster results....you can buy this at a hardware store like home depot or online.

[spectre6000]

I haven't tried it on watch parts (yet, a worthy 404 victim is en route now from Pakistan), but the above is similar to what I intend to use: Evaporust. Red rust (ferrous oxide) is physically larger than the black rust that results from the use of said concoctions. Ferrous oxide is Fe2O3 with the iron in a +3 oxidation state, while ferric oxide is FeO with the iron in a +2 oxidation state (disclaimer, I had to look that up to get it right). The ferrous oxide (red rust) is physically larger than the pure iron it replaces, and as it expands it exposes more iron below it, allowing further oxidation. Ferric oxide (black rust) is roughly the same size as the iron it's replacing, and does not lead to further oxidation. Proper treatment of rust involves conversion to black rust, but also some mechanical abrasion or something similar to ensure there is no hidden red rust. If you're not really all that worried about surface finish (for instance, working with large cast iron parts), wire wheel the sumbitch down then convert. I you need to retain as much original material as possible (for instance, very fine screw threads), you'll want to convert, polish, and convert again. 

The above solutions, unlike various unknown concentrations of phosphoric acid, are very selective and will not attack other metals. The solution (at least in the case of Evaporust, though I'm sure the Metal Rescue product is substantially similar) is primarily soap, and will dissolve oils and greases as a means of furthering its task. The Evaporust (only speaking to the product I know) is gentle and non-toxic as well (I mentioned in another similar thread recently that I learned this first hand after a lengthy conversation with their tech people after spilling nearly a gallon all over my kitchen). 

What I would do* is lightly clean in the ultrasonic in dish soap (and probably ammonia, since that's what I keep on hand for cleaning cases/bracelets) primarily to degrease, lightly clean with a medium bristle toothbrush or similar (nothing too abrasive), convert, polish/fiberglass brush/whatever, convert again, ultrasonic one last time in the dish soap/ammonia, and finally ultrasonic in watch cleaning solution. 

*I'm still very much a novice with the watchmaking. This advice, if it can be called that, comes from years of generally doing these sorts of things, but has not yet been attempted on an actual watch.

[saswatch88]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I haven't tried it on watch parts (yet, a worthy 404 victim is en route now from Pakistan), but the above is similar to what I intend to use: Evaporust. Red rust (ferrous oxide) is physically larger than the black rust that results from the use of said concoctions. Ferrous oxide is Fe2O3 with the iron in a +3 oxidation state, while ferric oxide is FeO with the iron in a +2 oxidation state (disclaimer, I had to look that up to get it right). The ferrous oxide (red rust) is physically larger than the pure iron it replaces, and as it expands it exposes more iron below it, allowing further oxidation. Ferric oxide (black rust) is roughly the same size as the iron it's replacing, and does not lead to further oxidation. Proper treatment of rust involves conversion to black rust, but also some mechanical abrasion or something similar to ensure there is no hidden red rust. If you're not really all that worried about surface finish (for instance, working with large cast iron parts), wire wheel the sumbitch down then convert. I you need to retain as much original material as possible (for instance, very fine screw threads), you'll want to convert, polish, and convert again. 

The above solutions, unlike various unknown concentrations of phosphoric acid, are very selective and will not attack other metals. The solution (at least in the case of Evaporust, though I'm sure the Metal Rescue product is substantially similar) is primarily soap, and will dissolve oils and greases as a means of furthering its task. The Evaporust (only speaking to the product I know) is gentle and non-toxic as well (I mentioned in another similar thread recently that I learned this first hand after a lengthy conversation with their tech people after spilling nearly a gallon all over my kitchen). 

What I would do* is lightly clean in the ultrasonic in dish soap (and probably ammonia, since that's what I keep on hand for cleaning cases/bracelets) primarily to degrease, lightly clean with a medium bristle toothbrush or similar (nothing too abrasive), convert, polish/fiberglass brush/whatever, convert again, ultrasonic one last time in the dish soap/ammonia, and finally ultrasonic in watch cleaning solution. 

*I'm still very much a novice with the watchmaking. This advice, if it can be called that, comes from years of generally doing these sorts of things, but has not yet been attempted on an actual watch.

i have used the evaporust and i swear it does not compare to metal rescue...i never really looked at the difference in the solution so i dont know why that is but, I have put many other watchmakers on to this solution and all of them no longer use evaporust....Only suggestion is if you tend to do soaks instead of shorter ultrasonic all you need is 24hrs you can do 48hr but dont push it because it will then start to turn the metal black.....if you have deep corrosion i do one soak then wire brush then a second soak

[alibababoombap]

3 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

i have used the evaporust and i swear it does not compare to metal rescue...i never really looked at the difference in the solution so i dont know why that is but, I have put many other watchmakers on to this solution and all of them no longer use evaporust....Only suggestion is if you tend to do soaks instead of shorter ultrasonic all you need is 24hrs you can do 48hr but dont push it because it will then start to turn the metal black.....if you have deep corrosion i do one soak then wire brush then a second soak

That's strange it hasn't worked for you. Evaporust has done me wonders. I leave it in over night and even run it in the US cleaner. Anything remaining usually comes off easy with a brush. I need to try metal rescue though.

If you only have a bit of surface rust, I would just polish though. Not worth the wait in my opinion.

[saswatch88]

1 hour ago, alibababoombap said:

That's strange it hasn't worked for you. Evaporust has done me wonders. I leave it in over night and even run it in the US cleaner. Anything remaining usually comes off easy with a brush. I need to try metal rescue though.

If you only have a bit of surface rust, I would just polish though. Not worth the wait in my opinion.

Not really saying evaporust isnt good or didnt work it just took longer to dissolve the rust esp if it was heavy. The metal rescue actually polishes the metal too so not only does it remove the rust it leaves the metal nice and shiny, just remove the part and wipe down with a cloth looks brand new.....if i could show you some of the motorcycle carbs i did you would think that it was new from the factory.

[jdm]

9 hours ago, saswatch88 said:

 i could show you some of the motorcycle carbs i did you would think that it was new from the factory.

Carbs are made of an alloy of aluminum. They don't rust but form a thin layer of browning ( that's oxidation as well but of the non ferrous type), especially where they contact with fuel and other contaminants. What works on them may not work on steel and iron, and viceversa.

There are tons of videos and tutorials on what is the most effective rust remover on common objects and general mechanical parts, I am surprised electrolysis has not been mentioned, as it is extremely effective and cheap.

However when we talk about watch and clocks I don't think we can apply the same technique and products. We have an abundance of brass parts plus a variety of ones plated to different metals and finishings, which are not so common in other manufafacts. In general, ammonia based solutions are very common and effective, as well the use of tea, but then again, there is no product that is really universal.

Some people spent good money on cleaning machines an professional liquids just to find that these have completely ruined the finishing of some expensive watch parts.

Given the small size we deal with we we have the option of quickly doing a bit of mechanical action to remove the last stubborn stains, that in my experience are alway there after using chemicals.