Water damage cannot loosen detent screw

[KarlvonKoln]

8 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I disagree with vinegar for it will damage gears and most any part if soaked for long.

 

Would you happen to know how long?  If not, I have some old junk brass gears that I could experiment with. Steel is not harmed by it, except for the rust. Brass seems okay, if not soaked long. So far, a few minutes has been fine to loosen rust.

[Poljot]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The same goes for Omega calibre 268 (and likely several other calibres) which had me puzzled for a while.

So true! I have just used the same technique less than a minute ago on Omega 30 caliber.

[spectre6000]

Evaporust is a dedicated rust converter that will chemically reduce the size of the iron oxide molecule by converting it from ferric oxide (red rust) to ferrous oxide (black rust). It's about the most gentle way I'm aware of to get the job done, and the majority of the solution is essentially dish soap (I learned after calling their support line once after spilling nearly a gallon all over my kitchen). I've used it before for a variety of things, but not yet a watch movement. Evaporust specifically states that whatever proprietary juice they use is extremely selective, and will not damage other metals. Also, you can get it at hardware stores and FLAPSes (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store for the non-automotive enthusiasts), and it's inexpensive (in the US at least).

I have a watch coming in (whenever it gets here) that clearly has some rust visible on the movement. I intend to test it out once it gets here.

The big reservation I would have using this is that I don't know what it would do to bluing, which is technically also a form of iron oxide. I think I might have had some blued something in it once before, and it turned it black, but I could be misremembering.

Edited January 10, 2021 by spectre6000

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Poljot said:

Aren't we "forcing" every screw while removing or installing it? Aren't we forcing a crystal into bezel? Just saying..

As stated in my previous post: "Unless you're 100 % sure the energy from the force is going to land exactly where you intend it to, force usually spells disaster." So, when pressing in a crystal with a tension ring, or unscrewing or screwing in a screw, then you know exactly where the force is going to land, so that would not only be OK, but a necessity! Right?

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

As stated in my previous post: "Unless you're 100 % sure the energy from the force is going to land exactly where you intend it to, force usually spells disaster." So, when pressing in a crystal with a tension ring, or unscrewing or screwing in a screw, then you know exactly where the force is going to land, so that would not only be OK, but a necessity! Right?

T = F * r * sinθ !

[VWatchie]

24 minutes ago, Poljot said:

T = F * r * sinθ !

It was many years ago I studied math and I guess I've forgotten much of it. Anyway, I'm sure it makes sense! 

[Poljot]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

It was many years ago I studied math and I guess I've forgotten much of it. Anyway, I'm sure it makes sense! 

even these days I need to calculate torque without using "on-line" calculators. M30 fasteners, not suitable for watch repair jobs...

[LittleWatchShop]

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Ok now, remove the ratchet wheel and barrel bridge, you then see and gain direct access to the stem and can do lot more. So far so good.

If you can remove the dial, date/ day ring and balance and balance jewels, drop the rest coke, no damage whatsoever by coke 24-48 hrs. then a tooth brush and powedered detergent cleans perfect.

I disagree with vinegar for it will damage gears and most any part if soaked for long.

 

I will have to get some coke tomorrow--dont normally drink it.  I wonder if Jameson would substitute

[Nucejoe]

10 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Would you happen to know how long?  If not, I have some old junk brass gears that I could experiment with. Steel is not harmed by it, except for the rust. Brass seems okay, if not soaked long. So far, a few minutes has been fine to loosen rust.

Your experiment results will be most valuable to publish to us all.

My little experiment sorta concluded about 30 min for most parts can be regarded as safe. which was nonsense, since we only see the visible damage and the surface only.

Vinegar won once where coke failed to loosen a rusted screw.

Results seem to vary drastically in ultrasonic 5 min of vinegar in ultrasonic is enough to damage gears.

Coke in ultrasonic will also eat balance pivots.

I hope your analysis of the results beats mine, I am not certain the experiment is a simple one.

Regs joe.

[watchweasol]

Hi  Drink the Jameson's while waiting for the rust to dissolve

[LittleWatchShop]

The experiment has begun this morning.  I mixed vinegar and salt.  Put a drop on the gap where the winding pinion and clutch reside...and over to the setting lever screw.  I will report back tomorrow on this.

[Poljot]

31 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

The experiment has begun this morning.  I mixed vinegar and salt.  Put a drop on the gap where the winding pinion and clutch reside...and over to the setting lever screw.  I will report back tomorrow on this.

I don't like this approach, but this is not my watch.. Your vinegar is 97-ish % is water, which will evaporate quickly. No need to wait till tomorrow. In a few hours if not minutes you should see crystals of salt

What you need (my opinion) is a drop of kerosene... Leave it overnight.

[MechanicMike]

On 1/10/2021 at 10:29 AM, Nucejoe said:

Ha ha,    

  Whenever a screw doesn't want to come out, offer it some cocacola it will.

I just drop ( some calibers) in cocacola to soak over night, ends breaking screws, try it,

remove balance and incab jewels, drop the rest in coke, specially useful for old rusted watches.

 

 

You know, I always thought you were pulling my chain about the "pepsi challenge, coke etc until curiosity got me. It does work lol 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, Poljot said:

I don't like this approach, but this is not my watch.. Your vinegar is 97-ish % is water, which will evaporate quickly. No need to wait till tomorrow. In a few hours if not minutes you should see crystals of salt

What you need (my opinion) is a drop of kerosene... Leave it overnight.

You are correct.  The salt is in suspension and when the vinegar evaporates, you have salt left.  I discovered this a couple of hours ago.  Have replaced with just vinegar.  The watch is a wreck to start with, so there is no way to go backward on this test.

[KarlvonKoln]

15 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

"Your experiment results will be most valuable to publish to us all.My little experiment sorta concluded about 30 min for most parts can be regarded as safe. which was nonsense, since we only see the visible damage and the surface only."
 

>>> Ah, I don't think I've yet gone as long as 30 minutes.  Good to know.  I tend to check a tightly rusted screw or part every 2 to 5 minutes.  If nothing happens at about 10 minutes, I clean it all and try to think of something else.<<<

"Vinegar won once where coke failed to loosen a rusted screw."

>>> I haven't tried Coke yet.  But I can believe that.<<<

"Results seem to vary drastically in ultrasonic 5 min of vinegar in ultrasonic is enough to damage gears."

>>>I do not own an ultrasonic yet.  I may get one later, but I think I will avoid using vinegar in it.  I can see where that would be especially harsh, particularly on brass.<<<

"Coke in ultrasonic will also eat balance pivots.

I hope your analysis of the results beats mine, I am not certain the experiment is a simple one.

Regs joe."

>>>I'm sure yours beats mine for sure.  I saw no damage to a brass wheel from vinegar after ten minutes.  But I think that's as long as I've ever done.  And you're right, neither the experiment nor the answer are simple ones.  I wonder if I should look into a different rust eating chemical.  I am now worried there could come a day when I forget to check how long I've had vinegar on a part and it ends up ruined from overexposure.  Is Coke all that much safer than vinegar around brass parts?  <<<

And can someone tell me how to insert text between boxes of quotes?  I've seen other people do it, but I must be a technological dinosaur or something.  I've tried several things which I though would do it, but nothing worked. I'm terrible at figuring this out.  Any idea what I'm missing?

Edited January 11, 2021 by KarlvonKoln

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

You know, I always thought you were pulling my chain about the "pepsi challenge, coke etc until curiosity got me. It does work lol 

A fellow forum member explaine that coke contains phosphoric acid which does clean, so I found some 80% phospheric acid by merc of germany to buy, will test and report to you Gents.

Once soaked I brush with a toothbrush and powederd detergent, little water at first to scrub the powder on parts then brush under tap water. 

[LittleWatchShop]

It broke free, but there is not much salvageable on that side of the watch.  I will keep what I can for parts.  Another bulova I have needs a new mainspring...maybe they are compatible.

[MechanicMike]

8 hours ago, KarlvonKoln said:

And can someone tell me how to insert text between boxes of quotes?  I've seen other people do it, but I must be a technological dinosaur or something.

I'm from the Cretaceous period myself. Try this: Right click highlight a particular text or sentence from a post. As soon as you let off the mouse, it should prompt you to 'quote text.' click on it, and presto. I think. 

[MechanicMike]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

A fellow forum member explaine that coke contains phosphoric acid which does clean, so I found some 80% phospheric acid by merc of germany to buy, will test and report to you Gents.

Once soaked I brush with a toothbrush and powederd detergent, little water at first to scrub the powder on parts then brush under tap water. 

I had always heard the stories over the years just never tried it until recently. works pretty good. ever tried that liquid stuff they sell? The name escapes me...I'm pretty skeptical by nature tho..

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

I had always heard the stories over the years just never tried it until recently. works pretty good. ever tried that liquid stuff they sell? The name escapes me...I'm pretty skeptical by nature tho..

Coke is friendly to most metals.I have a list of stuff by Merc somewhere around here which may include the stuff you talk about, haven't tried other Merc products. A lady friend Phd in Chemistry answers my questions and provided me with the list and access to list of Merc chemicals she had in her office. 

Haven't yet found a source for tetracholroethilane, heard its the one-dip for hairspring.

I also plan to try highly refined petrolium ether and report the results, I am a lazy old fart.  

Regs 

joe

 

 

 

[aac58]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Haven't yet found a source for tetracholroethilane

It's also known as perch or perchloroetilene. I'm using it and works fine, although one-dip was trichloroetilene, banned in most countries due to its high contamination rate, so one-dip has changed to B-dip.

Edited January 12, 2021 by aac58

[MechanicMike]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Coke is friendly to most metals.I have a list of stuff by Merc somewhere around here which may include the stuff you talk about, haven't tried other Merc products. A lady friend Phd in Chemistry answers my questions and provided me with the list and access to list of Merc chemicals she had in her office. 

Haven't yet found a source for tetracholroethilane, heard its the one-dip for hairspring.

I also plan to try highly refined petrolium ether and report the results, I am a lazy old fart.  

Regs 

joe

 

 

 

One-Dip is available at Ofrei.com and Esslinger.com I have a small bottle it's ok for a quick clean but as far as loosening stuff I'm not sure. TCT  is some nasty stuff and becoming rare in the states. They're banning everywhere. Heavy irritable odor too. I use it once in awhile for just that: one dip. I'll look up the brand name of that other stuff I saw. Always curious to see if that works.

[aac58]

3 hours ago, aac58 said:

I'm using it and works fine

Perhaps I wasn't very specific here and can cause misunderstanding: I use perch to clean the balance complete and the pallet fork, not to remove rust

[Nucejoe]

So is the B ONE solution is pure trichloroetilene  or a blend.

Branded products are not marketed here, I need to find the formula or go for generic at best.

3 hours ago, aac58 said:

It's also known as perch or perchloroetilene. I'm using it and works fine, although one-dip was trichloroetilene, banned in most countries due to its high contamination rate, so one-dip has changed to B-dip.

Thanks for sharring.

[aac58]

6 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

So is the B ONE solution is pure trichloroetilene  or a blend.

Branded products are not marketed here, I need to find the formula or go for generic at best.

Thanks for sharring.

I've searched again on my notes and One Dip is not TCE, but 99,4% Tetrachlorethylene, which is what I use and I source from a chemical products store.

I do not know what ingredients are in B-Dip.