Balance regulator stuck

[Khan]

This is a vintage Chronometer no-name pocket watch. Does anybody know how to regulate it? The regulator pin doesnt move at all when trying to push it. The timegrapher shows +150s per day and beaterror 6-7. 

[Poljot]

2 hours ago, Khan said:

This is a vintage Chronometer no-name pocket watch. Does anybody know how to regulate it? The regulator pin doesnt move at all when trying to push it. The timegrapher shows +150s per day and beaterror 6-7. 

Well, a few problems here:

- hairspring needs to be cleaned as it's sticking making your watch run faster as the hairspring becomes shorter

- remove the Balance Cock and take the balance apart, clean, oil properly, re-assemble

And it looks like the hairspring collet needs to be re-positioned.

Voila!

Edited January 4, 2021 by Poljot

[Nucejoe]

I agree with poljot, thats the least bring it in beat, the movement might need a good clean and lube.

How about showing your TG print ?  over longest period you machine can show.

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Poljot said:

hairspring needs to be cleaned as it's sticking making your watch run faster as the hairspring becomes shorter

I think I'm starting the New Year's off with eyesight issues or confusion issues? The hairspring looks perfect to me and I don't see where it's sticking. I snipped out something what I am seeing is in over coil which wraps around and then comes down giving the impression that it's sticking where I don't think it actually is. It's the angle of the photography that's the problem.

5 hours ago, Khan said:

The timegrapher shows +150s per day and beaterror 6-7.

It would really be nice to get a picture of that as numbers are pointless without seeing the graphical display. Also you're missing the amplitude which is really important when were looking at the beat  error.

Then continuing with my eyesight issues the regulator arm is off the bridge. It looks like somebody has regulated just about as fast as it can go. It's hard to tell with the image but if the arm goes that far off it might be catching on the edge of the bridge itself?

 

[Khan]

Hopefully, its just a confusion issue due to unclear images. The hairspring seems intact to my eyes, please find new images. The amplitude is low with high beat error. I guess the regulator pin can be re-positioned when unscrewing the 2 screws when re-oiling the balance jewel?

[nickelsilver]

Can we get a pic with the balance at rest? Perhaps someone got very motivated poising it in the past and removed a lot of weight from screws. Or, it could be missing a screw... though that usually would give a much greater gain, like hundreds of seconds. However- the regulator pins have been spread quite wide, and it is set way past a normal position in trying to slow it down, so if the pins were closed as they should be and the regulator was in the middle AND it had decent amplitude*, you might actually have a few hundred seconds gain.

 

*quite often, but not always, these old pocket movements will have a significantly smaller lift angle than modern wrist watches, like as low as 38, often 40-42, even the ubiquitous Unitas 6497 has 44. You may have less amplitude than you think.

[JohnR725]

On 1/4/2021 at 6:08 AM, Khan said:

Chronometer no-name pocket watch. Does anybody know how to regulate it? The regulator pin doesnt move at all when trying to push it. The timegrapher shows +150s per day and beaterror 6-7. 

Before we do anything at all what does the watch do it self? In other words if you set the watch the time 24 hours later is it still running and how does it compare to what the timing machine is suggesting?

3 hours ago, Khan said:

The amplitude is low with high beat error

Usually low amplitude usually lower than what were seeing on the machine and high beat error by an indication of an amplitude problem not a beat problem. I'm not saying you don't have a beat problem but I'm just suspicious of what the machine is showing.

3 hours ago, Khan said:

I guess the regulator pin can be re-positioned when unscrewing the 2 screws when re-oiling the balance jewel?

Yes you can put the regulator wherever you want if you disassemble it. But if the watch needs to be serviced oiling the balance jewel or in this case both jewels because you have access is just a quick fix it's not a replacement for proper lubrication and cleaning.

Thank you for better pictures because we have a problem or possibly several. I did a minor enhancements and we can see things better and then snipping out something peculiar?

In a watch that has an over coil type hairspring the regulator pins are supposed to be as tight as possible allowing the hairspring to slide. A normal flat hairspring the hairspring pins be a little more farther apart. But yours has been opened considerably at least it looks open which might be an attempt to slow the watch down.

Then in the zoomed in picture notice it looks like a kink right at the regulator pins where they should not be? But even more troubling is the straight edge that I'm seeing that shouldn't be there at all? We need a slightly different images to see this better but I'm wondering if somebody broke the hairspring and patched it or some other horrible things happened here?

[Khan]

Hi again

Thanks for putting time on your feedbacks. 

The watch runs exactly as what time grapher shows- gaining 2 minutes in a day. Do you think a service will help? Yes, it looks like a minor kink right next to the regulator pin as if somebody touched the area with a tweezer as the blue is de-colored. 

[Klassiker]

Hello Khan,

depends what you mean by service. A general disassembly, clean and lubrication of the movement might bring the amplitude up and slow it down, but you still will not be able to regulate it. Judging by the circular scoring on the balance cock, and the fact that it does not move easily, the regulator seems to be clamped down hard. Maybe there is a spacer missing or something like that. I guess your next step is to separate the balance from  the cock, and strip down the regulator / jewel assembly for cleaning, inspection and measurement.  You'll also be able to get a better look at that kinked portion of the hairspring pointed out by John. From the overhead shot it looks twisted too. Good luck sorting it out!

[Nucejoe]

 Worst case sensrio would be having to add some weight washers to screws.

I would clean and lube like poljot first said since hairspring might be sticking intermitently.

If that regulator arm doesn't wants to cooperate, its arm can be filed a bit which is not entirely honoring watchmaker code of ethics but works.

 

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Worst case sensrio would be having to add some weight washers to screws.

Before doing anything proper diagnostics is needed. People are often eager to change things without grasping why things need to be changed. Unfortunately sometimes we don't know why things have occurred because previous watch people have mutilated our watches.

To make it easier to understand I'm attaching images snipped out again. Always good when people have decent pictures for diagnostic purposes. This is a bimetallic balance wheel one of the problems with this is if somebody squeezes it the arms are movable. Movable in the term of they get bent. So classically somebody squeezes it the arms are bent in the watch runs fast. Normally need true and calipers and very carefully spinning to look at that but you can usually I ball it and if you grasp what you're doing been the arms back out. You do need to make sure that the little gaps of the both the same size and the both symmetrical otherwise you will have different issues.

6 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

If that regulator arm doesn't wants to cooperate, its arm can be filed a bit which is not entirely honoring watchmaker code of ethics but works.

I suspect the reason why the arm doesn't move is it's been pushed to an extreme and with the hairspring looking the way it does I not sure you want to push it back because your risk damaging the hairspring.

The regulating arm is supposed to  have friction is not supposed to move effortlessly otherwise it will move all by itself or if the watches bumped gently it may move. I suspect all you need to do is loosen the screws underneath rotated back into the middle tighten the screws back up and it should be fine. Only if it's not fine in the middle in other words it cannot move at all then you can worry about. Or if you want just take it all apart make sure everything is nice and clean  no rust for instance but it should work fine without lubrication I think it's just been pushed to the extreme and it's catching on the edge of the bridge.

[Khan]

Hi

I figured out that the regulator was stuck because, the two screws holding it, were too tight. It works now. But nevertheless, the cap jewel seemed to be a wrong size and I guess it broke due to the tightness of the mentioned 2 screws. Moreover, when I loosen the screw, attaching the balance and spring to the balance cock, if looses time as well, wherefore I get better timekeeping but obviously only on one side, as I need a new jewel. I wonder if Cousinsuk have such in stock. 

[Nucejoe]

 Frankly Khan,

Did you not check the staff's pivot shakes?   Specially if we haven't seen/cleaned  the jewels to it.

 

First thing to check as soon as we can access the balance in the movement, is its shakes, to find out if there is a pivot and if the pivot stays inside jewel hole and doesn't jump out with little force.

Regs 

Joe

 

 

 

[alibababoombap]

This might be silly to bring up, but would magnetization be a problem here?

[JohnR725]

32 minutes ago, alibababoombap said:

This might be silly to bring up, but would magnetization be a problem here?

Magnetism is always a problem when you have a steel mainspring. This is where having a demagnetizer is vital and watch repair especially on vintage watches. But this watch had other problems the balance arms being bent in would be a problem. Easy problem to fix though. Then now it has a broken jewel that is going to be a real interesting challenge to find a replacement.

[HectorLooi]

I have a couple of vintage watches with broken endstones. It's not easy to find a replacement. The modern endstones are shaped differently from vintage endstones. Modern ones are designed for shock proof systems like incabloc, kif, diashock, etc. Vintage endstones are more rounded, almost hemispherical.

I've ordered like 500 pieces of assorted endstones from Cousins but I just can't find the ones I need. I'm tempted to bid for some on ebay this week. But it's for a lot of 5000 stones. I might just have to learn how to reshape my own stones.

I wish you luck.

[thewatchdoctor]

As per all above and make shure their is no oil on the balance spring ( Living in the backwoods I tend to use zippo lighter fuel. Also older pocket watches tend to have a steel balance spring so I would definately demagnitise the movement after assemble as the any oil or a magnitised spring cause the coils to stick together.