Vibrating hairsprings

[Nucejoe]

This balance wheel can be vibrated with a compatable hairspring.

 Today I vibrated a Seiko 6309 with (Swiss) hairspring of unknown CGS with success, so I know I can save aprox 132 such Seiko watches with hairsprings of same CGS which I can get my hands on.

 A concensus here is;  to vibrate a balance complete, you will need a vibrating tool, which I don't have, however, your watch is the most accurate vibrating tool I know of.

There is hardly any demand for this,  so I think thats the reason Mark may not have tought a lesson on vibrating balance complete in his courses.

Once we gain some experience, we can build a balance complete out of a balance and perhaps some seiko scrap hairspring or even other calibers(swiss, jap, German, etc) 

Funny I seem to have gained more stability of the oscilator when the watch gets on wrist, than Seiko.     Can this indeed be the case?     Is the Swiss hairspring delivering more stability ?    We shall find out.

The principle is easy, you just need to have mastered repeated safe removal/ replacement of hairspring and cut.

Happy Christmas to all.

Regs Joe.

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

There is hardly any demand for this,  so I think thats the reason Mark may not have tought a lesson on vibrating balance complete in his courses.

I'm going to agree with and disagree with the above quote. The first part is correct there is hardly a demand for replacement vibrated hairsprings. but I'm going to disagree with why Mark does not have a video on vibrating hairsprings as he has a problem the same problem we all have which is where the heck do we buy hairsprings?

At one time you could purchase new hairsprings in the CGS system but that's a thing of the past. The British horological Institute publishes a magazine in the August 2007 magazine is an article on hairsprings. Relevant for us is they make an interesting discovery generic hairsprings are no longer available and haven't been available for some time. simplistically from the article the number of companies making generic hairsprings shrank to one. I have a link to it below. There is no longer producing CGS hairsprings they make hairsprings basically on demand for the companies.

what is interesting is the schools teaching professional watch repair are still teaching hairspring vibrating typically for one size watch which is the 6497.

 

https://www.swatchgroup.com/en/companies-brands/production/nivarox

[MechanicMike]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

watch repair are still teaching hairspring vibrating

Its fascinating that people spent an entire careers as a hairspring vibrators/specialists.  Doing this every day for 30 years. What I wouldn't give for a fraction of that knowledge and experience.  A lost art.

[praezis]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what is interesting is the schools teaching professional watch repair are still teaching hairspring vibrating typically for one size watch which is the 6497.

True, e.g. Wostep does. But the basics, i.e. flat hairsprings only.  Digging deeper is not possible in their limited time.

Making Breguet hairsprings is no more taught, though they appear often with vintage watches and really demand knowledge - visible as wrong shaped coils that I find in most watches.

But main problem is availability of any CGS number hairsprings, as mentioned.

Frank

 

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, MechanicMike said:

Its fascinating that people spent an entire careers as a hairspring vibrators/specialists

I would be curious as to whether that actually occurs today?

6 hours ago, praezis said:

True, e.g. Wostep does. But the basics, i.e. flat hairsprings only.  Digging deeper is not possible in their limited time.

The Swiss American Watchmakers Training Alliance (SAWTA) Which replaced wostep in the US at least at some of the schools as far as I know still is teaching vibrating hairsprings

What's interesting is not all schools teaching watchmaking hand vibrate hairsprings. here's an interesting video of a school there making a watch and then we get shortchanged on the hand vibrating. At five minutes 39 seconds that does not look like hand vibrating at all does it?

https://youtu.be/KJQIw8Az1Xk

I really like the description it says is for manual counting?

https://www.greinervibrograf.ch/en/Spiromat/Spiromat-Classic.htm

6 hours ago, praezis said:

Making Breguet hairsprings is no more taught

Here's an interesting video showing how to do a Breguet hairspring In a school so there's still teaching it sort of? You normally wouldn't do it sort of the way they're doing it because that is a really big heavy hairspring. In other words that's not your normal hairspring. But there's still learning the concept.

https://youtu.be/4ddWRl_NVTE

Then I found a few links related they hairspring vibrating

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2017/4/26/hairspring-week-vibrating-the-hairspring

https://watchmakingjourney.com/2014/12/23/second-semester-final-project-vibrating-a-hairspring/

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 

Then I found a few links related they hairspring vibrating

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2017/4/26/hairspring-week-vibrating-the-hairspring

https://watchmakingjourney.com/2014/12/23/second-semester-final-project-vibrating-a-hairspring/

 

Thank you John for the useful advice, info and  links as usual.

Question;   The video( link you provided above) shows a " precalibrated oscilation" of vibrating tool plus an oscilator turning and says " A lever on the side allows you to rotate the tool, spining both wheels"  

The tool must keep oscilating at a certain constant rate until the user finds the vibrating point.          How is the tool powered? electrically? 

 and do we have choice of multiple beats on the tool to select from?

In case of flat coil, no serious percision is needed out of the tool, as we don't really need exactness in locating the vibrating point, since we have the terminal curve for regulating, terminal curve allows us to regulate despite collective inaccuracies of the oscilator.

The tool doesn't seem hard to build if incorporated with electronics.

Thanks in advance and a very happy Christmas to you John.

 

 

 

 

[clockboy]

Interesting post/s and I agree hairsprings are extremely difficult to source I have many many hairsprings in my stash yet I never seem to have one that fits. Manipulating the damaged hairsprings is our only option. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

The video( link you provided above) shows a " precalibrated oscilation" of vibrating tool plus an oscilator turning and says " A lever on the side allows you to rotate the tool, spining both wheels"  

Basically the video shows the classic hairspring vibrating tool used to torture students in watch schools.

One minor problem with the above link is that the vibrating tool platform with the master balance comes in two forms. The ones like above or you do not see the balance you only see an indicator arm. Or the one that you see the balance wheel. Then the  platform comes in different frequencies.

You'll notice that each of the master balance wheels as a stopping mechanism so you can stop it from oscillating. This way when you start both of them they both will start at the same time. I'm reasonably sure there's a spring in the base but it's been so long since I've used one of these. So in other words you push down the lever and release the spring polls  it back and that's what starts the balance wheel  oscillating.

So I found a number of video is for you. The first one slightly misleading because he starts in slow motion later he'll go to full speed. 

https://youtu.be/GSIOZCwlimQ

This video shows a happy student as they hairspring is  matched in frequency to the master balance wheel. Notice how long they say synchronize together

https://youtu.be/M5LEN66vxgc

Another video he shows they hairsprings out a sink and then later in sync.

https://youtu.be/yWHm9YOrGqE

Then hairspring vibrating tools don't exist anymore except on eBay at bizarrely interesting prices. So somebody has made his own. You'll notice it's using an optical pickup.

https://youtu.be/htckrH3ae54

Then in this link we do get a confirmation that in the base is a spring. He has a interesting story he ends up with part of the tool and then makes an electronic replacement for the platform. The other reason I gave you the link for this is a makes a reference to the Microset timing machine. You can order a hairspring vibrating pickup for that which he shows in his discussion.

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/hairspring-vibrating-tool.html

Now I'm going to just toss out ideas and thoughts

one of the downfalls of Chinese timing machines are there missing a couple of really nice features that witschi has. But you really can't complain at a fraction of the cost of a witschi machine. Specifically most of the witschi machines have the ability to measure the beats per hour or frequency of the balance wheel. Very handy when you're having bizarre timing issues like comes up quite a bit when I'm working on pocket watches. Also handy when you're trying to vibrated hairspring and you're going to be far enough away from its normal frequency that the normal timing machine probably won't be at the time it.

Other places where you find timing machines that measure beats per hour are clock makers machines. Typically that's the standard way they time clocks is by measuring the beats per hour.

Then you have a variety of ways of taking up the oscillation like optical which came up above. There's also audio? You'll notice when they hairspring is in the vibrating tool oscillating back and forth as they hairspring coils up the  balance wheel actually lift up and can't make a ticking sound on whatever it's normally resting on. If you looked at the school videos of the fancy machine they were using that's how it picks up the frequency of the balance wheel.

A very long time ago there was a paper tape timing machine that had a microphone that would let you hold a pair of tweezers. Specifically designed to hold the tweezers and the balance wheel so you could vibrate a hairspring that way. So as it went up and down it would make a ticking the sound for the microphone the pickup.

Plan as Nucejoe As pointed out you can use a watch for vibrating hairspring. But it also if it's very far out back to needing something that will measure beats per hour.

At the next link another reference scroll down to the Bulova school book section Seven vibrating a hairspring. Then look they even have a section on over coil's.

https://mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

This will get you started probably generate more questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the downfalls of the Chinese timing machines are there missing a couple of features found on witschi timing machines. Namely one of my favorite is frequency mode. I tend to use it a lot on pocket watches that have timing issues where there so far out that the conventional machine even witschi can't guess the frequency. Then you go to frequency mode in it will tell you how many beats per hour it's oscillating. With the exception of expensive witschi machines we also have clockmakers timing machines they typically a measure beats per hour.

If you are measuring the oscillation electronically if you notice in one of the videos above I think it's the one worry is the finished hairspring. All of them will show what but is it I believe showed it better when she is when you're vibrating a hairspring it tends to also go up and down as they hairspring coils up. There was an early paper tape machine and had a interesting microphone that allowed it to hold a tweezer which would hold your hairspring. I don't remember how you gave the balance wheel LePore she might haveused a puff of air. In any case

 

 

 

 

 

[praezis]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I really like the description it says is for manual counting?

Imho it is basically the same as counting with a Luthy, but it is the most comfortable way of manual counting.

However some schools use a Luthy with the more modern electronic box connected to Witschi WE or to PC.

Frank

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, praezis said:

Imho it is basically the same as counting with a Luthy, but it is the most comfortable way of manual counting.

The company entirely rearrange their website but I did manage to find the manual for the machine. I still think the descriptions not quite right. Apparently the machine works by supplying a puff of air. Causing the balance wheel to oscillate As it oscillates it also moves up and down and A Sapphire Plate. the machine pics that up.

I really think there depriving the students who worked so hard to make their watch of hand vibrating. It still seems like cheating to use an electronic method versus the traditional.

[praezis]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Apparently the machine works by supplying a puff of air. Causing the balance wheel to oscillate As it oscillates it also moves up and down and A Sapphire Plate. the machine pics that up.

Exactly how it works.
Years ago I owned the older version w/ tube electronics. The sensing unit was basically the same.

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It still seems like cheating to use an electronic method versus the traditional.

A very strict view.  You use an electronic timing machine today, don't you?
Personally I never liked the single-bph mechanical balance box of the Luthy. I also found its rate changes dramatically with amplitude. In one of your above videos they test at about 50 degrees. Far away and far off by rate from 270 degrees!

Frank

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, praezis said:

A very strict view.  You use an electronic timing machine today, don't you?
Personally I never liked the single-bph mechanical balance box of the Luthy. I also found its rate changes dramatically with amplitude. In one of your above videos they test at about 50 degrees. Far away and far off by rate from 270 degrees!

you really think I have a strict view?

Yes I do have a electronic timing machine I have a small collection of them. my favorite one on the bench at home is the witschi watch expert two. then at work we have a nifty witschi machine with a full automatic microphone six position timekeeping I really like that even for vintage watches. You really don't know me very well I love technology.

By the way did you notice and I'm going to quote something?

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Basically the video shows the classic hairspring vibrating tool used to torture students in watch schools.

don't you find the word torture a rather strange word to use here?

to refresh my memory I re-watched the school video and here's my problem. They spent three years with the extreme emphasis on traditional hand making. In the entire video the obsession is traditional hand methods. Then rather than hand vibrating the traditional way they use a machine. Yes it's definitely cheating and it's not the traditional method.

to keep this short what you're seeing with me is an irritation? My irritation is technology can do wonderful things for us even in watch repair. But so many people embrace what they perceive are the traditional hand methods and they totally close their minds to technology. in a discussion with people it's almost like good versus evil with no middle ground which is sad.

 

now back to vibrating hairspring

traditionally vibrating a hairspring involves using a hairspring vibrating tool occasionally they come up on eBay. Unfortunately they look nifty, nifty looking watch tools usually have nifty undesirable prices. then if you get your nifty hairspring vibrating tool which by the way I know how to use which is why use the word torture. it's a time-consuming tedious process to learn how to use the tool.

timing machines? If we go very far beyond the range of our conventional timing machines they would get confused. If you have a witschi machine it will measure beats per hour is not a problem. Unfortunately witschi machines are expensive. Clock repair people have machines that will do it but they are still expensive. Although they do come up for sale on eBay occasionally.

Then the way I think of this entire discussion is DIY and whatever we discuss should be able be repeated by anyone on this group. So basically we need an electronic timing machine that measures beats per hours. We could modify something existing perhaps like an optical tachometer. I was looking for one a couple weeks ago and I was looking at Arduino as a friend somebody probably already is done such a thing. Sure enough I found somebody that made one. Sousing the Arduino platform because it's readily available the boards are super cheap on eBay that would be an option.

then holding the hairspring and balance wheel? That doesn't have to be complicated either. You just need a way of holding the tweezer and its holding the hairspring. I think I saw something simple and one of the books I was looking at yesterday if anyone's interested I'll go and find it later today just let me know. Otherwise just a way to hold your tweezers and we don't need any fancy spinning base. Although that would be nifty we can probably 3-D print something and the stepping motor. But you really don't need all that as we just use a puff of air to spin the balance wheel and pick it up optically. Does not like anyone's going to be vibrating thousands of hairsprings it doesn't have to be super fancy that could be or should be relatively simple.

[Nucejoe]

Thank you all for sharring your experience and knowlege, helpful discussions on pros & cons of various models of vibrating tools specially useful to those of us interested in acquirng one.

I was under the impression that in most Eurpean & American repair shops there usually is a vibrating tool however small might the demand for their use be. Individual hobbyist, collectors who repair their own watches, however, might not find buying such tool justifiable for few infrequent use as per discussions above acquiring all horlogy tools is impossible for average repair shops let alone individuals, so vibrating balance inside the watch is specially suitable for those of us who might come across few nice pieces found in attics which can easily and inexpensively be fixed/serviced providing we know how to vibrate inside the watch or else face a hefty repair bill. 

Happy Christmas to frank and clockboy and all other friends here. 

 

[praezis]

John,

I know you are using modern TMs, question was just rhetorical 

If you use a traditional Luthy, or a comfortable Greiner - there will be enough tasks left to "torture": fix the hairspring to the clamp, find the right length, cut at the right spot, fix to the collet, fix to the stud, observe the correct pinning angle...

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So basically we need an electronic timing machine that measures beats per hours.

That is available on the free TM software PCTM.
I introduced it some time ago, but the thread was removed after a stalking attack.

Also, did you read this thread?

Frank

[JohnR725]

 

8 hours ago, praezis said:

Also, did you read this thread?

yes it's an interesting thread? As to whether I read it or not the problem is there's too many threads on this discussion group to remember every single one of them. But I'm assuming that I must've read it because I replied in the threat.

8 hours ago, praezis said:

That is available on the free TM software PCTM.
I introduced it some time ago, but the thread was removed after a stalking attack

you appear to be correct casually googling the link to the discussion appears to be missing? But I found another discussion were somebody listed out all the various software-based timing machines and I found this link which does appear to have the software.

https://c.web.de/@337134913998293880/YuEh_TobSjaCfyBDix_1gg

 

 

 

[MechanicMike]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:46 PM, Nucejoe said:

Thank you all for sharring your experience and knowlege, helpful discussions on pros & cons of various models of vibrating tools specially useful to those of us interested in acquirng one.

I was under the impression that in most Eurpean & American repair shops there usually is a vibrating tool however small might the demand for their use be. Individual hobbyist, collectors who repair their own watches, however, might not find buying such tool justifiable for few infrequent use as per discussions above acquiring all horlogy tools is impossible for average repair shops let alone individuals, so vibrating balance inside the watch is specially suitable for those of us who might come across few nice pieces found in attics which can easily and inexpensively be fixed/serviced providing we know how to vibrate inside the watch or else face a hefty repair bill. 

Happy Christmas to frank and clockboy and all other friends here. 

 

the few vibrating tools I've seen for sale are super expensive and stunning to look at. Just like the vintage lathes and such. thats museum behind-glass type stuff right there.