Is this a front loader?

[Lc130]

I'm a beginner.  This is a Wyler case 4115E-1162.  There are no indentations on the back nor any tool marks.  Is it a front loader?

 

If so will Mark's instructions for opening work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGSPqtxqye4.. He pulls on the crown with a pinion remover and uses air pressure to pop the crystal.

 

There's also this procedure http://blog.watchdoctor.biz/2019/03/23/what-is-a-split-stem/

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Lc130

[watchweasol]

From the pictures it certainly looks like a one piece case in which case either method should work, the old maxim is just be careful .  good luck.   and Merry Christmas.

[JohnR725]

One of the clues here is the engraving on the back perfectly centered and if it was a screw off back they never go back like that. People don't always snap the back so on perfect either.

47 minutes ago, Lc130 said:

He pulls on the crown with a pinion remover and uses air pressure to pop the crystal.

I always like the caution that there are a feel watches that do not like the split stem separation by pulling them apart. Fortunately probably 90% of them they can be snapped off or out just fine. But there are those tiny percentage where you'll break the split stem

one of the minor things bothering me now looking at the picture it almost looks like that crystal as a tension ring inside? In other words a metal ring inside the crystal which typically you do not find on frontloading watches sort of? Omega will do that but they usually have a ring holding in the crystal assembly. Usually frontloading watches that do not have a holding ring in place expect to build a remove the crystal.

[Lc130]

It is a front loader.  I pulled the split stem apart with a pinion puller.  I tried a crystal lift with moderate tightening which wasn't enough.  Should I tighten more or try Mark's syringe method?  I realize this is not a math question and "results may vary".

 

Thank you

Helpless in Maryland

[CMW]

Is this one of the watches that you can use compressed air to open it?

/Carl

 

[watchweasol]

Hi LC130       By all means use the syringe method the end result is the same, put a cloth over the crystal when applying the pressure via syringe.  

Carl  in answer to you question  yes but not a high pressure line, all that is required is enough to pop the crystal

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, Lc130 said:

I tried a crystal lift with moderate tightening which wasn't enough.  Should I tighten more or try Mark's syringe method?

I'd go for the syringe method first.

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the minor things bothering me now looking at the picture it almost looks like that crystal as a tension ring inside

If that is so I'd avoid the crystal lift for as long as possible.

[Lc130]

I tried a bike tire pump with a ball needle, double poly bag, rubber gasket and my 9 year old putting full weight on the pump with minor leakage.  Won't budge.  I then tried the Bergeon crystal lift at about 80% to 90% full torque.  Still  nothing.  What would a real watchmaker do?  

If not running 160 amplitude I'd leave it alone.

Thank you

Charlie

 

 

[fixermole]

Might that bezel need to be removed first??

[Lc130]

57 minutes ago, fixermole said:

Might that bezel need to be removed first??

Ah Ha!  That's not taught in self learning:) Yes, that did it. I pried the bezel off (now I know what a bezel is) and the crystal and movement popped out.  Thank you...now let's see if I can "service" it without killing it.

Charlie

Thankful in Maryland

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Lc130

[fixermole]

Glad I could help. I just happened to work on an old front-loading Bulova a month ago that had enough crud under the bezel and slight pry mark to realize it was removable. Even after 50-100 repairs/restorations, I learn something new with every single piece I work on. Keeps it interesting and keeps my old brain working. Cheers.

[JohnR725]

On 12/22/2020 at 3:46 PM, Lc130 said:

I pulled the split stem apart with a pinion puller.

I'm not sure the percentage but 90% of the time if the stem is split there is a reason like it comes out to the front

20 hours ago, fixermole said:

Might that bezel need to be removed first??

Very common with frontloading watches use theirs of Bezel that has to come off as it's holding the crystal on. Omega does this all the time.

21 hours ago, Lc130 said:

I then tried the Bergeon crystal lift at about 80% to 90% full torque.  Still  nothing.  What would a real watchmaker do?  

Hopefully a real watchmaker would know what they're doing and take off the bezel. That's another clue when used to the crystal lift and nothing was happening then obviously we were missing something. We really needed a better side view picture to see if there was a bezel or anything like a retaining ring.

 

[Poljot]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm not sure the percentage but 90% of the time if the stem is split there is a reason like it comes out to the front

I hardly every see the split stems. In this case, the case was very basic - two parts. The entire crown with outer winding step was missing. I purchased a suitable crown and the outer Stem 0.9mm, adjusted the stem length and voila! I've decided not to push it in (what if it breaks! ). Instead, I rotated the inner stem and the outer stem up to align "tongue and groove) and simply dropped the movement in. Once it was in, two-part stem was securely locked. Same procedure for removal - no need to pull the crown with pliers, etc. Simply remove the bezel and rotate the crown while lifting the dial until you able to pull it straight up.

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, Poljot said:

I hardly every see the split stems

As far as I know the only reason you'd ever use a split stem is if the movement is coming out the front. Because otherwise typically there would be no way to remove the stem safely.

Of course this is watch repair there's always exceptions to the rule. Seiko once made a case that they added a separate part to the movement so you can release the stem from the front side once the crystal was removed.  I have a vague memory of seeing a watch that you could remove something from the back to get to the stem release.

Then not all split stem's are separated by pulling really hard. Typically everywhere everyone tells you just pull it out and Most the time people are lucky and it's the kind of split stem that is meant to pop apart. But like the picture above that particular split stem you're supposed to slide the movement out. Mido has a split stem shaped like the picture above and definitely do not want to pop it apart. We went through this Where I work another watchmaker pulled it out damaged it attempted to tighten it and broke it. This required purchasing a used case off of eBay just to get the crown and its stem. Then the movement stem was challenging because it came in a whole bunch a variety of lengths which didn't seem to correspond to the length we had. But eventually we found the right one.

Which is why caution is always required with split stems.

[Poljot]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

As far as I know the only reason you'd ever use a split stem is if the movement is coming out the front. Because otherwise typically there would be no way to remove the stem safely.

Of course this is watch repair there's always exceptions to the rule.

I agree, but slightly disagree. Here is why: some movements could be "front loaders", BUT it doesn't mean there is no access from the back where you could safely disengage the stem from the movement. Which means you do no need a split stem. Timex M107 is one such example - I can open the back cover to visually inspect "what's going on" and remove the stem, but I still have to lift the crystal in order to pull the movement out of the case.

In the above example, i did not need to remove the crystal, and the "back cover" was rather a one piece movement holder with a bezel on top. It was rather the case tube design / location that called for a split-stem. Two-part case design Vs three-parts.